@Duvain, deciding if someone deserves to suffer/die/etc. is judging. Deciding that someone is good or bad according to some laws is judging.

Please don't take this as offence, but guys like the one you describe make me feel a bit sick. He seems the truest Talos worshipper, could as well be his apprentice, lol.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Vezrabuto]Vezrabuto[/url] said:[/b]

Well the magic the Dragoncult used was never Documented. It has to be very very high level Magic. Since the Draugr offer up their Life Force to the Dragonpriest and then restore it on their own. It is almost like they are still Alive. You just reminded me that they do Actually talk in the Old Nord Language. Mabe its a very low form of Lichdom? 

Oh ok :D 

[/blockquote]

Well, the Dragon Priests are apparently liches, so probably yes.

@Vezrabuto - You speak for an Oblivion or Skyrim playthrough? Because if it is Skyrim there is a cool thing you can do. Install Andromeda standing stones and pick Atronach this will stop mana regen entirely I would suggest to also install Imperious races and pick either a Breton  (best choice stones of galen will give on Atronach stone 30% reduction for all spells) or an Imperial (2nd best with human spirit to add 100 magicka at level 10) and also you can install Ordinator Alteration has some very cool perks for an Atronach no mana regen build.

Now how does all that fit together. Well, you can say a part of you and your magicka will go and imprint to the reanimated minion since you will be using the 3rd option. The state of mind of the necromancer plays a big part on the end result of a reanimation. You could use necromancy that way and also have a one-handed weapon at hand to aid your minions defend yourself etc.

Not sure if you will like this playstyle I 'm just throwing a random idea here, I 've done that with deadra like dremora, atronachs and it was cool, I was playing a sorcerer though.

I have my playstyle completly done. Use Zombies as Tanks Attack with Destruction Staff use Runes to cut off entrances stack Poison Rune and Heal the Undead. the sword is mostly roleplay since its just good to have since im dealing with mostly undead.Im also not using mods i want to make him work with what the game gives me. 

I will go with fresh corpse = more intelligent. Draugr are Unique due to their unknown magic. 

@Thorien - But have you never taken a bounty mission or any other mission in Skyrim telling you to go and kill X person because he is a bandit, necromancer etc? Then you shouldn't like any of your characters that might have done that as well. It is one thing to truly judge and act as an advocate of justice acting always morally correct in the eyes of the good people and another thing to follow the system but also know how it works and have the power at any given point to "avoit it" or go against it. He does judge to some extent but everyone does it and he is a little "flexible" from time to time while doing so.

I don't mind actually if this character is bringing out such emotions and not be liked I am making him to be some sort of an antihero so it means it's on a good track. :P

You could say this is also the exact same thing the Thalmor do though. They are judging and in a much larger scale than my character so they must be making you even more sick and disgusted. :D By their laws they outlawed Talos worship and all the people who worship Talos which are even many generations ahead of the ones that actually harmed them during the war with Talos (but yeah it was still Talos) are guilty and are being taken from here and there in Skyrim to be tortured, interrogated and killed. We hear people saying Thalmor just came and took people from their homes for worshiping Talos. Where is the difference between the other people judging who is guilty according to their laws and the Thalmor also judging the same according to their laws on such a large scale and cruel manner with torture, interogation and killing and mind you on people who didn't even harm them directly but it was their ancestors so this goes to straight up revenge for something that some other person might have done generations ago. Whoever my character kills which are bandits, thieves, assassins, necromancers etc have also harmed an other "big group of good people" so both are judging who has to die based on their respective laws. Even if you argue that Talos did harm the Altmer which he did but should the highly sophisticated and educated Thalmor in order to "lead" the lesser race of Man in Skyrim make a law and be allowed to abduct arrest(?) Talos worshippers from their home for torture, interrogation and kill them? If that is the case then by their law they should be allowed to legit kill at least half of Skyrim's population, is this not also judgement? Both judgements include the same thing a big group of "good people" who were harmed by someone and judge them evil and killable. In the case of Thalmors it's even more severe. 

Actually mine only wants to gain power and he just prefers to be with the good people, if the good people turn against him he will equally show no mercy. He will always put his well being first and then the good people for the bad ones he won't care too much he won't go overboard to make them suffer but he won't care too much either. Now, regarding judging the bad ones to be honest he doesn't really care all that much to be an advocate of justice or anything, not at all he just follows the laws set by the "good" people and the fundamentals of them like stealing and killing and in general being a person that brings misery mindlessly to innocent people going about their casual lives happen to be things that he also doesn't like so he acts according to that, everyone has some sort of logic and thought that act upon mine's is that he is on the good side mostly but will never show mercy to his enemies even if at some point the good guys become his enemies he will act accordingly.

Everything is judged by the laws a group of people that make a community, city, country. In a setting of a world like the ES and Skyrim you cannot judge with our standards if you are in a line of work like adventurer, explorer, bounty hunter or just simple hunter etc one day you are and the next day you aren't. So most people in this line of work follow the thing of  "Killing before you 're Killed" and will try their best to survive some might do things that others won't view as morally correct but in the end they might have a better chance to live another day.

@Vezrabuto - Cool have fun! Characters with minions fighting alongside them always make for fun playthroughs! :D

@Duvain, the reason why I dislike the guys like yours is not unrelated to judging.

Imagine a guy, not yours, just some abstract fellow of any race. He goes to a shop in a village. He wants to buy something, but when he asks the shopkeeper how much the thing costs, he discovers that it's too expensive. Hee trues to haggle, but the shopkeeper doesn't give him a lower price. So he goes away. A few days after there's a fire in the shop. It burns, its owner dies a horrible death in the fire along with his family. Then the takes a bounty to kill some bandits. He goes and kills them, the mayor gives him reward, he is a hero and everything is cool. Then a dragon attacks. The guy kills the dragon and the mayor gives him reward... but not as much as he wanted. He takes it and leaves. After a few days another gang of bandits attacks the village and robs the people of all valuables, and also kill the mayor in a very gory and scary way. After some time our fellow returns and takes a bounty on the new bandits from the new mayor. He kills them and gets the reward, paid from the villagers' last gold If you ask any of the villagers what do they think of this guy, they'll tell you he is a hero. In the eyes of the people, he is good.

The thing is, he is good in his own eyes too. He helped people! That greedy shopkeeper had no right to put such unjust prices for his wares, our fellow made the village a service by burning him in his house. He killed the bandits and the dragon, he is a real hero, and that mayor had the audacity to not reward him properly. So he told some buddies in the next village, that this village is very rich and has little to no guards, and its mayor is a Daedra worshipper who eats children. And then he again saved the village from the bandits from the next village. And in the end he is not only a hero but also a very rich man.

This story is exaggerated and rather dumb, but I think it conveys the example. A fellow who acts in such a manner, and then sees himself as all cool, makes me more than a bit sick. Yes, no one might ever know what really happened, he will remain clean in the eyes of the law and on his own eyes too. But that changes nothing.

When my character takes a bounty on bandits, he acts under the will of the law. The law states that robbing and killing is illegal, and it doesn't matter that some people don't like it. When a Thalmor Justiciar arrests a Talos worshipper, he acts under the will of the law, namely the White-Gold Concordat, which is a law, whether some Nords like it or not. People who disobey the law shouldn't be surprised when they face the consequences.

The lines about "just worshipping Talos" sound, at least to me, somewhat like this: "Why are you arresting me?! I've done nothing wrong! I was just worshipping Talos and teaching my sons to worship Talos so they can also teach their sons to worship Talos so my great-grand-children will know to slaughter all of you knife-eared bastards just like Talos did! There's nothing wrong in this! And who cares that it's illegal, we Nords never gave a shit about Imperial laws!"

Yes, the Thalmor are abducting Talos wordhippers from their houses, arresting them, rtc., etc. But how else you eradicate a cult of potential terrorists? After it was already officially banned? Do you know another way?

Killing before you are killed and killing to gain power are very different things. And, at least imo, it's better to die than forfeit one's honor. 

Also, evil characters are called evil for a reason. One willing to sacrifice others for his own benefit is evil, it's a fact. One willing to sacrifice others for something like his pleasure or fun... Well, you get it.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Vezrabuto]Vezrabuto[/url] said:[/b]

I have my playstyle completly done. Use Zombies as Tanks Attack with Destruction Staff use Runes to cut off entrances stack Poison Rune and Heal the Undead. the sword is mostly roleplay since its just good to have since im dealing with mostly undead.Im also not using mods i want to make him work with what the game gives me. 

I will go with fresh corpse = more intelligent. Draugr are Unique due to their unknown magic. 

[/blockquote]

Draugr probably operate under the same principle, after all, the laws of nature are same for all.

@Thorien - Oh I see you misunderstood actually my character's standing maybe I should have phrased it better. He is actually acting always under the law, all the time. He will break the law and fight against anyone only under the circumstances that his life is in danger but he will never provoke the "good guys crowd" or do such underhanded things. He will never start a fight with the good part of the people but in case he is to be attacked by such a group at some point maybe due to a missunderstanding or who knows what of course he will fight back and defend himself without any mercy for the attacker no matter who it is this is more his disposition rather than what he actually does. He doesn't care much about such mundane things in his eyes once you acquire true power you can overcome many things money or people are just things he will outlast eventually if he gets stronger. He will never start a fight with the "good part of the people". In some cases he might opt to steal something but it will have to be some super powerful artifact or something like that, he won't go out of his way for some enchanted items for example one might own or gold but cool artifacts of power might interest him then again he would still have a bottom line and not kill indiscriminately or collaborate with any Deadra like Namira, Boethiah etc but he would be cool to use Azura's Star or Dawnbreaker. for example. That's why I said he is flexible he might do some bad here and there but he won't go about killing people. Also ifor the ones that own said artifacts or w/e he wants I might roleplay it as him challenging them in battle over the artifact or something like that I think there should be some mods to help with that I 'll check it out.

On another note regarding Talos worship for me it goes into the bigger picture of Elves vs Men. I cannot consider any side good or bad but the actions of both sides can be justified to me. It has been like that since the beginning with Shor, Auriel and all this company. They are just two sides fighting for survival and supremacy. It is a back and forth with the same thing repeating itself but the protagonists change between two roles the winner and the loser everytime it happens. Back then Talos conquered Summerset and imposed w/e he wanted on the Altmer now the Thalmor came on top wit hthe Concordat and imposed a part of what they wanted to do if they won and if in the future the Thalmor win they will do the same thing Talos did and impose what they want and control the humans which has no diference from what Talos did. That thing about just the humans being barbarians who want to slaughter all the elves I just can't buy it. The Elves as well have a survival instict as every race and will do the same to humans if needed they will slaughter them all and we have seen humans and elves alike doing it. Also where did you ever see before the big wars in Tamriel the Elves living in harmony with humans and teaching them their way of life? Direnni had them as serfs and they even had collections of them to show them off to their friends. Ayleids treated humans as cattle much worse than the Direnni. So, to me none of the races of Mer or Men take a good course of action but their actions can be justified under their instict for survival and supremacy over the other and the ones suffering the most are the poor peasants from both sides who just want to do their thing which could be a job, a family, scholarly endeavors etc and nothing with conquest, wars and killing and suprecmacy of one race over the other.

I wasn't talking about your character but about a certain type of a character. One who sees only himself and his interests, and for whom all the others are just a sort of entourage.

Though the fact that your guy would only kill for artefacts and not for money doesn't show him in a better light. If he killed for two septims his moral would be exactly the same. To each his own, I just can't stand such types, they make me feel disgusted with the world. 

You can say there's no difference between men and mer, but imo there is one very big difference. Idk about you, but I'd prefer to be a servant in a cultured and civilized society with wise laws than a important person in a society of barbarians where there's no law but strength. It's a matter of preference I guess.

i side with Thorien here, that guy seems pretty psychotic. you said that he would fight back if a Misunderstanding happens. So instead of Explaining it to the guards or paying a little Gold you would just Slaughter everyone without Mercy and feel nothing for them. 

Oh, I also don't like these types of characters they become kinda boring even inside a story. I 've read some online novels with such characters who were villains, it was kinda refreshing because you read about the cool guy hero most of the times but yeah people who like the cool guy heros wouldn't bear to read about these types of characters.

Still that is the way all big factions operate they will fight and most likely at some point kill for resources. Bandits, thieves, assassins, wizards, Imperials, Stormclaoks, Thalmor they all fight and have gotten their hands dirty for resources one way or the other but just on a larger scale. The only difference is that they have the recognition of a bigger team so it is easier to justify their actions to many. I don't understand if you consider the actions of this character as disgusting the actions of the others shouldn't be too far off from that as well only difference being the scale and not the nature of the action. I don't know which people this will leave to like maybe only priests and peasants who have never done anything outside of the laws because even guards are geting bribes so they are eqally guilty.

No, he will fight back if they trully threaten his life and want to kill him and they do not accept discussion, I even have speech on him as a skill for such situations and also roleplay. This is his disposition only when his life is in danger he will fight and go for the kill regardless of who is his enemy not when he can resolve a matter with talking or some gold. Say, you play and there are guards or people coming for you just to kill you not put you in jail or hear to reason you just have straight up a mob of people coming to kill you even though you are innocent or at least the problem didn't involve you killing anyone if you caused one, do you stay there saying hey I 'm cool and probably the main hero so could we sit down and discuss or conduct a trial until you find a sword and arrow sticking out of you? Killing is the very last resort and also yeah like I said he is not 100% good and not a 100% bad if he wanted he could slaughter towns and steal whatever they have but he will only go to challenge for resources those who also have the power to defend themselves and maybe kill him and these resources won't be the run of the mill enchanted items or gold they will be items big bad strong bois have. What my guy has is actually the moral compass all those with power have the only difference is that he is is just one person seeking power while the others are doing it in groups and they are probably much worse than this guy, they do not care in most cases about the "sideline casualties" mine will at least not go to challenge/steal from farmers, shopkeepers, peasants or anything but equally or stronger people than him.

Actually I also don't understand this line of thinking, I mean just because a mob of people want to kill you who happen to belong to the good guys faction you would sit there to be killed? I would arrow them in a moment if they didn't hear to reason and logic. Always speaking from the perspective that my character hasn't done wrong if he did do wrong well he will just try to escape or resolve it with talking and paying his fine but the last thing he wants is such problems that is also why he follows the good guys rules and he will only break them as a last resort. This is his disposition like I said he will never let anyone that trully threatens his life get away with it, what if that person returns later on and cause bigger problems or actually kill him? By the way this is how every big faction operates they will always fight with others for resources this fight might be one done with talking, scheming, money or arms and killing but all factions you join have fought some way or the other for resources that 's how things work everywhere. You both I think like to play the trully good justice guys so it is understandable to see a character such as that like a bad one but I see him more as a realist and nothing else with good and a bit of bad in him but still this bad has certain limits. Also bear in mind that not everyone is born the same some people have to go through hell in order to acquire the basics in order to hold a grasp on their own life and what they go through affects their actions later on.

Wait you 're telling the Thalmor promote only a cultured and civilized society? Well maybe on the surface but I do not see the Thalmor as such an enlightened and benevolent group. They straight up kill any element that might threaten their rule. These guys trully rule with an iron fist. You think whoever has a different opinion (not hardcore political enemies), thinkers, scholars even neutral ones would be left alone to express their ideas if they didn't fall in line with theirs? I can't see the Thalmor doing something like that ever because they are not a King that took his rule by right they were a small group-organisation who never had the joys of authority in their hands seeing a chance and claiming authority. There is a big difference between the two. I would also certainly prefer to live in an Altmer society but not the one ruled by the Thalmor. They even declared the Psijics a rogue organisation showing them as a negative element and their not so cordial stance against them. Even the Imperials didn't regard them as such and they were just ignoring the Psijic that offered some advice to them. When did you ever see in the history of Altmer one of their rulers to be against the Psijics in such an open manner at least, these guys (the Thalmor) have the fear a dictator has for his rule and they take the exact same actions. That could also be one of the reasons the Psijics dissapeared, I think it was close to when the Thalmor began making their moves to gain authority of Summerset, they probably wouldn't want to clash with the Thalmor. So a society ruled by someone that has such fears is one that will never be trully free, they will never allow different opinions to be heard. (If you tell me that the Psijics didn't help the Altmer in their time of need that goes for the Men as well with the Greybeards these guys could as well go and not do much but just start singing during the Great War for example and shatter the elven army to pieces or teach Men the voice but they didn't).

Sorry for the long post I m also writing something for work so I just go back and forth between the two adding something here and it bacame like this :/