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• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 2:57 PM EDT

  It all seems a bit subjective.

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 2:59 PM EDT

  I'd be totally fine with a full-fledged side quest involving the Blades and the Thalmor (preferably with an option to side with the latter). I don't like the way they are currently shoved in the main quest, not the Blades or Delphine themselves.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 3:06 PM EDT

  Well, but that's what I mean. I don't think they're "shoved in" at all; it seemed very reasonable and interesting to me.

  So, you don't like the way the Blades are used in the story, and that colors how you respond when they ask you to kill Paarthurnax. I like the Blades, so I'm more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt. Who's right? Eh.

• Drakon

  

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  April 13, 2015 3:15 PM EDT

  Did dragon ever hurt or enslave bretons? Delphine is a breton if I am not mistaken?

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 3:17 PM EDT

  No, you got it wrong. My reasons for saving Paarthrunax are listed on the page 4. Here I only addressed a particular part of Phil's comment :)

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 3:22 PM EDT

  ...aaaaaaand we've reached the part of the discussion where I have to start cross-referencing multiple replies through several days of responses, and that means I'm out. Peace!

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 4:11 PM EDT

  It's actually a tough one to call and I concede there seems to be room for both interpretations. The tablets on the Seven Thousand Steps make it clear that the dragons ruled over the entire continent and goes on to imply the war covered the whole of Tamriel too, but in all likelihood they were etched long after the Dragon War was over and only reflect the Nordic view.

  The problem I have with King Edward, not the book but it's place in modern lore, is that it comprises some of the original world building for the TES universe. Like the Light and the Dark, we only see it in Daggerfall which is suggestive that the world has moved on since the mid 90's when these books were written.

  Now, that's not to say they are no longer relevant, it's just the world has evolved.

  The Pocket Guides are similar, up until TES IV it was believed that Cyrodiil was a jungle province and red dragons flew over the Imperial City. (This is where Todd Howards oft quoted "only game books should be considered canon" quote comes from and only makes sense in this context). The PGEs have the advantage of being dismissed as propaganda or treated as a serious piece of lore depending on what point a scholar wishes to make. I think King Eddy and Light/Dark are also good examples of using lore in this way. I approve, don't get mw wrong.

  So dragons existing peacefully with mortals is certainly a possibility but also flies in the face of all the dragon lore we have since, leaving us to uncomfortably try and juggle the dragons = bad of the newer lore with dragons = not so bad of the old.

  An argument could be made that mythopoeic forces have an effect on the dragons because they are shards of Aka. That way, Overhate's idea of how our own backgrounds shape our perceptions are actually physically true for the TES races. I quite like the idea that TES mythology is a meme, as I have banged on about elsewhere.

  As for the Blades, I do disagree on this score but I think we hashed it out before. I admit the MQ is a bit weak (but is still far better than Oblivion's imo) but The Blades lore introduced in Skyrim have given us the missing link between the Akaviri Dragonguard and the protectors of the Dragonborn Emperors they later become. It all slots into place nicely and  helps build parallels between the Imperial version of what a Dragonborn is and the Nordic version of the Dovahkiin. For that alone I feel their inclusion in TES V is a good one.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  April 13, 2015 4:37 PM EDT

  Because I'm going to force Paarth into teaching the Nords the Thuum again. He's traded his tyranny for mine.
• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 5:08 PM EDT

  Hah, at least that's honest rather than the usual bullshit on this thread.

  Delphine was so mean to me but Paarthurnax is so nice and sweet.

  Yeah he's a fucking bunny rabbit

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 6:04 PM EDT

  I don't think we have to choose between the "dragons are bad" and "dragons are good". There is room for both interpretations and it does not necessarily have to come from metaphysics (you know I hate those ). It can be simply that the dragons behaved differently in different provinces and it can be directly tied to the population of those provinces. If I remember correctly, the Nords came to the dragons themselves and established the Dragon Cult. Things might've been different in other provinces and dragons could've played a different role and had a different place in society. 

  As for the Blades, I don't think their inclusion in the game was a bad decision and I'd be all for a full-fledged side quest (guild questline) involving Blades and the Thalmor. IMO the bad decision was to use them in the main questline. But you're right, we have probably gone over it quite a few times 

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 6:09 PM EDT

  What other accomplishments? Well, for one, the accomplishment of spreading his philosophy among other dragons. This is an achievement of a whole other magnitude. 

  And we'll have to agree to disagree on your notion that he'll lose control the moment he leaves the mountain. I'm more optimistic and can see him convincing other dragons to coexist peacefully with mortals. And if not, my vampiric Dragonborn will cleave his head off 

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 6:12 PM EDT

  The idea that the answer doesn't come from metaphysics is too many for me

  

  The Dragon Cult came with the Nords from Atmora if memory serves, the actual origins are obscured I think. But yeah, the other provinces during the Dragon War are open to interpretation as there are some big gaps there.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 6:23 PM EDT

  An optimist is what a pessimist calls a ____?

  

• Deleted Member

  
   

  April 13, 2015 6:25 PM EDT

  You know how I do.
• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 6:29 PM EDT

  A realist!  Sorry Ash, but that line won't help you to survive Virmire 

• Kyrielle Atrinati

  

  • 291 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 7:27 PM EDT

  I haven't killed Paarthurnax on any character to date, except for my current one.
  Generally, I haven't killed Paarthurnax in the past, because he reminded me too much of the "Wise Man" in the Hero's Quest (see Joseph Campbell). All of my previous character's have had respect for such kung-fu masteresque characters.

  But Moricey is different. She is the arm of Boethiah (whether she knows it or not at this moment). She will eventually kill Paarthurnax because he is in the way. Moricey wishes to prove to all other dragons that she is the strongest. She killed Alduin, enslaved his lieutenant, and now she will kill Alduin's brother. If that doesn't send a message of power, nothing does. Furthermore, the Blades can be useful. They serve the Dragonborn, and now that she has done them a kindness, they will do as she wishes.

  After all, the Empire is weak. The Nords weaker. They need a leader, one of proven worth. The position of High King simply will not do, the position of Emperor, however...well, if she also have the Imperial Army to back her...why, there could be a whole new era...

• hbi2k

  

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  April 14, 2015 11:19 AM EDT

  Oh, the Greybeards are idiots too.  Paarthy seems more or less all right, though.  At least these days; I hear he got up to some shenanigans back in the day, but then, so did the Mongols, and you don't see me going to the nearest Mongolian BBQ and offing people.

• hbi2k

  

  • 11 posts
   

  April 14, 2015 11:26 AM EDT

  I agree with all of the people who point out that the Greybeards are idiots too.  They absolutely are, only marginally less frustrating ones than Delphine since I don't actually have to quest with them at any point (although it would've been nice if they'd given me all the Word Wall quest markers up front instead of doling them out like jerks).

   

  The difference is that the Greybeards aren't asking me to kill someone who's been helping me out, for no benefit other than one more dragon soul (when I've probably got a dozen sitting unused by that point if I'm not rolling with a mod that lets me spend them on perk points) and a generic follower (when actually-interesting ones are a dime a dozen).

   

  So yeah, insofar as I'm "siding" with anyone, I'll side with the benign idiots over the ones who are asking me to do their dirty work for them and offering nothing of value in return.

• Leon

  

  • 131 posts
   

  April 14, 2015 4:35 PM EDT

  Also free stun on enemies.
• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  April 14, 2015 4:38 PM EDT

  Nobody's arguing guilty by association here. The crimes weren't committed by Paarthurnax's ancestors; they were done by Paarthurnax himself.