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A reason why you killed (or didn't kill) Paarthurnax

    • 1595 posts
    April 12, 2015 9:56 PM EDT

    Sorry about the war crimes thing Vaz.  It's an emotive subject - and rightly so.

  • April 12, 2015 10:10 PM EDT

    Yeah, I made myself sad watching that again.

    • 457 posts
    April 12, 2015 11:36 PM EDT
    Not as exaggerated as her walk; the only thing that kills me about Delphine is her I've-got-armor-on walk... even when she's wearing a dress in the tavern.

    And the Thalmor weren't able to find her, how? xD
    • 1595 posts
    April 12, 2015 11:56 PM EDT

    That wasn't aimed at you my friend  

    • 457 posts
    April 13, 2015 12:22 AM EDT
    I know, but I just couldn't resist an opportunity for a jerkish joke... I really ought to apologize for that--they don't make a Next Generation quadruple facepalm do they? xD
    • 1595 posts
    April 13, 2015 12:36 AM EDT

    Sadly I didn't get that far in my search before Borom pulled me up on it  I would have carried on otherwise, using cut and paste to add more if need be.

    • 1217 posts
    April 13, 2015 12:44 AM EDT

    But...her harmless inn keeper act...?

    • 1217 posts
    April 13, 2015 12:48 AM EDT

    I don't think it means people should like her for it. For sure, she is abrasive. But it isn't necessary to like her to recognize she's a good character, with uncommon depth, in some of the same ways that Paarth is. So while she's not super likable, that's hardly a good reason to dismiss her.

    • 1217 posts
    April 13, 2015 12:54 AM EDT

    Delphine is invariably the focal point of this dilemma; it makes perfect sense for her and the Blades to be part of the discussion. Even the OP is centered on her. I think Phil's got a great point. If they had taken a different approach to her character, it would be quite a different debate. Would it be a better situation? Probably not; the option really should have been in there to move past the choice, but seeing as that's not the case, we make due.

  • April 13, 2015 1:22 AM EDT

    Yes. It's pretty over-the-top.

  • April 13, 2015 1:58 AM EDT

    I remember bringing up a theory a while back, that's essentially about how Paarthurnax is the true villain of The Elder Scrolls and that the plot of Skyrim is the result of a (very) long con he's running on absolutely everyone. The gist of it is this:

    1. After eons being worshiped as a god and serving as the top lieutenant of a brutal, tyrannical regime, begin to secretly teach a few mortals how to use the Voice, particularly a special Shout that exists only to give them the power to murder your brothers.
    2. Knowing that Alduin can't be directly defeated, manipulate your mortal pawns into banishing him into the future, giving you the time and free rein needed to consolidate your power and prepare for the true final battle.
    3. Go into hiding, and thus remaining safe while the mortals you empowered go about slaughtering any and all dragons too stupid to do the same, continuing to ensure that there will be none to rival your ambitions.
    4. When the opportunity arises, begin teaching a new pawn - Jurgen Windcaller, aka Jurgen the Calm - the "Way of the Voice," a philosophy that preaches the Voice should only be used to worship the gods, and not, as it has been used for generations, as a tool for fighting dragons.
    5. You are now in a very secure position - safely hidden behind a fanatically loyal order that is the only organization in Tamriel to use the power of the Voice, without any major rivals after the genocide that mortals have wrought upon dragonkind and with plenty of time to practice the pitch to your final pawn, the one who will end Alduin's threat to you forever.
    6. Alduin returns. With his power, he begins to resurrect all the dragons that have died over the eons since his last appearance, setting the stage for your return to power.
    7. The Last Dragonborn appears, and, as you instructed, the Greybeards begin teaching them in the use of the Voice. Between the legends you've strategically planted among mortals throughout the long ages and the words from your very own lips, the Dovahkiin is convinced that killing Alduin is the right course of action.
    8. With your help, the Dragonborn first shakes the returned dragons' faith in Alduin's abilities, and finally kills him - for good. You are now the most powerful dovah in existence, and the leaderless dragons are open to being converted to the Way of the Voice.
    9. Now in control of an immense army of dragons and with no one of comparable ability to stand in your way, you are free to grind the mortal races beneath your claws, covering Nirn in a new Age of Dragons where dov rules supreme...with one major change. It is you, not Alduin, who rules all.

    Kill Paarthurnax. Save the world.

    • 1217 posts
    April 13, 2015 2:04 AM EDT

    1. But Dragonrend didn't come from Paarth, else why wouldn't he just teach it to you himself when you meet him? Sending you off to get an Elder Scroll doesn't seem to do anything to further this goal, instead risking the life of the one mortal who can permanently kill Alduin. If everything hinges on this shout, what reason would he have not to share it right away?

  • April 13, 2015 2:06 AM EDT
    1. It's a joke.
    2. I forgot he doesn't teach you Dragonrend. But, the wider point still stands - he teaches mortals how to Shout, giving them the knowledge needed to create Dragonrend themselves and, thus, slaughter the dragons while he hides on his mountain.
    • 1217 posts
    April 13, 2015 2:16 AM EDT

    I would totally buy into the rest of it, and not even fault Paarth himself. Assuming he manages to take a bunch of dragons "under his wing", how long before they end up contending with the other dragons? His secret's out, so he can't just hide (at the end of the quest, not the part you mentioned) and what effect will that have on him? Will he conquer or die? Heck, even the dragons that follow him could, over time, turn him back to his old ways with their dragon-y persuasion. Vaz's option is the true ideal: give him the benefit of the doubt, and if he turns, take him out. But then he has only to wait until the Dragonborn is dead.

  • April 13, 2015 2:27 AM EDT

    I think part of it is a combination of "show, don't tell" and the failure to suspend disbelief.

    Paarthurnax's (alleged) crimes all take place offscreen, and are related to the player entirely through exposition. This makes them very easy to gloss over and ignore on the part of the player, because it's not "real" to you in the same way Paarthurnax's aid to you is throughout the game. Players are already very quick to ignore things that are actually shown, so it's hardly shocking to see them dismiss mere backstory as unimportant.

    On the other side, it's easy to seize upon Delphine's prickly behavior and willingness to argue with the player because it all happens right on-screen and in front of you. Gamers have a long history of exaggerating things that annoy them, so it's no surprise that things go from "She's a bit stubborn and slow to trust you" to "That f---ing b---h should die in a f---ing fire!!1!" when you add in the internet echo chamber.

    • 1217 posts
    April 13, 2015 2:30 AM EDT

    Too true.

    • 1595 posts
    April 13, 2015 3:06 AM EDT

    This is a well put together little conspiracy theory, I like it. I'm sorry I can't recall the original discussion otherwise it would be a Directory entry in the LG.

    I'm wondering how I can tie this all in with the idea that Hermaeus Mora contrived all the events to prompt the fulfilment of the prophecy.

  • April 13, 2015 3:19 AM EDT

    Yeah, I think the most eerie thing about it is that he doesn't even really need to be doing any of it on purpose - his efforts to atone for his previous barbarity and do the right thing just happen to leave him in an incredibly powerful position. Dragonkind's drive for power and domination runs so deep you can't even act completely selflessly if you try.

    The Way of the Voice isn't really a cure for that drive, it merely directs it inward. After all, the entire point of becoming a Greybeard is about teaching yourself the most powerful techniques in the universe, and then swearing never to actually use them. It'd be like me building a nuclear bomb in my garage, just so I could very deliberately not blow anything up with it.

  • April 13, 2015 3:21 AM EDT

    I believe it was in the comments on some photo of Paarthurnax.

    Sorry, I don't knew enough about Hermaeus Mora to help you out with that. I do like the idea that there are multiple groups who are working to bring about the prophecy for their own benefit; after all, an event as big as the (potential) end of the world would probably attract a lot of powerful attention.

    • 1217 posts
    April 13, 2015 3:33 AM EDT
    Also very true.
    • 1595 posts
    April 13, 2015 3:47 AM EDT

    Have you got an example, Overhate, to help illustrate your assertion?

    • 1595 posts
    April 13, 2015 4:06 AM EDT

     1. Is what we learn in school, 3 is what we learn as adults.

    • 1595 posts
    April 13, 2015 4:27 AM EDT

    There is a bit of 5 here, minus "the world would have come to the current state anyway, no matter who won" sentiment. There are a growing amount of 2's, especially as more right-wing parties appeal to the "keep foreigners out" Nord mentality which has been growing in recent years.  

    When I was at school we mostly learned how the USA were big goddam heroes who saved our asses at the last minute. The fact that they didn't join out of pure altruism is something conveniently left out...

    • 1595 posts
    April 13, 2015 4:38 AM EDT

    Absolutely. I think TES has quite a unique approach to lore in that respect. I think this pisses quite a few people off, especially those who like slightly more firm lore facts, but I love it as it is.

    • 3 posts
    April 13, 2015 5:26 AM EDT

    Bethesda probably thought this would be a huge moral dilemma, but 95% of the people simply gave the Finger to Delphine - including me. I only killed him once to see what would happen, and re-loaded when I saw nothing happening. What, the Blades are gonna respect me? Screw them. I always hated the Blades in Skyrim anyway (remember the mute Esbern glitch?). In the times of emperor Patrick Stewart (aka Uriel Septim VII) they were supposed to serve the Dragonborn, not the other way around!

    I know that Paarthurnax commited many bad deeds, but that was in the Merethic Era, for cryin' out loud! And even then, he felt sorry for humans and helped them defeat Alduin. Better yet, he sat on a freakin' mountain peak for all those decades waiting for Al to return, and then helped banish him again. Don't know about you, but I think he's earned his pardon.

    Both Delphine and Esbern are a disgrace to their order! Do they even realize that Tiber Septim would never be who he was if not for Paarthurnax? It really annoys me there wasn't an option to refuse to kill him, or even better - to kill the Blades.

    (sorry for the long rant, I had to let it out somewhere  )