Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 7:20 AM EDT

  @Borom - Yes, but I did not bring Delphine as a reason for saving Paarthurnax in my post to which he replied  

  @Phil - Dragon War took place in Merethic Era, before the book was written. And you have to consider that what Overhate says about the different portrayals of the same events in different cultures is true for TES as well. You base your view of the Dragon War on Skyrim's portrayal which is "Nords saved the world from doom". It is entirely possible that the Dragon War was viewed quite differently in High Rock, Summerset Isle or Argonia, and King Edward proves that. So yes, I do believe that dragons can coexist peacefully with mortals. And if Paarthurnax would not keep his promise, my immortal vampire Dragonborn will absorb his soul 

  Emotions play a role in making this decision decision for many players, but not for me. My problem with Delphine lies elsewhere, as I have brought in the relevant thread - their inclusion seemed forced and unnecessary, purely for the sake of having the faction from Oblivion in the game. Blades can easily be removed from the game without impacting the anti-dragon notion of the main quest.

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 9:09 AM EDT

  I don't see how that theory make him the true villain of the Elder Scrolls. It would make him a villain, yeah, but not THE villain.
• Deleted Member

  
   

  April 13, 2015 9:14 AM EDT

  He would be the villain of TES6, or that weird gap between five and six.
• AncienTzSlayeR

  

  • 19 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 9:29 AM EDT

  Yup, and I agree completely, but I say its amazing because it fixes another bloody problem xD

• AncienTzSlayeR

  

  • 19 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 9:31 AM EDT

  So it's kind of like, I am going to test how strong my resolve is by not 'blowing up the nuke in my garage' to use your example =p

  What if your resolve fails? 

• Vaaljørn

  

  • 92 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 9:59 AM EDT

  It seems like, in any debate about Paarthurnax, both sides of the argument sound a little like this:

  

• Vaaljørn

  

  • 92 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 10:41 AM EDT

  In all seriousness, my decision about Paarthy turns on the type of character I'm playing at the moment. However, most of my recent characters have (or will) kill him. These characters simply don't trust him. Sure, Paarthy has--thus far--overcome his dovic nature. Yet, a few 1000 years is like a mere day to a timeless dovah. From Paarthy's perspective, he's been a good little dragon for only a couple of days. Not much "overcoming," if you think about it.

  The characters that allowed him to live: one was my canon, old Nord ways Dragonborn; and the the rest didn't finish the MQ or didn't care about the Greybeards or the Blades.

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 10:44 AM EDT

  About this time thing, I disagree. 1000 years is 1000 years. Sure, it'll feel like a day once you have lived for a million years since then but I don't think that it belittles the effort. 

• Vaaljørn

  

  • 92 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 11:04 AM EDT

  Not sure I can agree with you. Countless generations of mortals rise and fall in 1000s of years. Mortals judge the strength and the value of their accomplishments based on the the time they have had. People who have multiple accomplishments are revered because they were able to fit so much value in the same allotted time as other mortals. And the only way mortals know that they have truly made a long-lasting, personal change is by looking at the length of time for the change over the course of their life. 

  Time feels much, much different to someone for whom time has little, if any, meaning. I'm mean, sure, we can give Paarthy an "A" for effort, but that's not what we're taking about. I'm looking at whether that "A" is a short-term success or an indicator of the future. For someone who live for eternity like Paarth, we simply don't have enough time to tell.

• Vaaljørn

  

  • 92 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 11:07 AM EDT

  This argument, of course, lends itself to the conclusion that we should just wait and watch over Paarth very closely to see what he is doing. However, our character doesn't have that option, so it all boils down to trust. 

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 11:15 AM EDT

  What I'm trying to say is that the effort you made will feel more grand immediately in the aftermath. To put things in perspective, finishing university feels like a big achievement right after completion but after 20 years it can get dwarfed by the other accomplishments. In Paarthurnax's case we are talking to a dragon who spend last few 1000 years of his life trying to overcome his "evil" nature. It feels as a grand achievement to him at the moment. Perhaps after other few 1000 years he'll view it as a mistake and go back to his mortal killing ways. Or maybe he'll improve on that and will be able to convince others in the virtues of peace. We can't tell. But currently, he has certainly put more effort in being peaceful than being "a good little dragon for only a couple of days" and he views that effort accordingly. To illustrate what I think with the above-mentioned example - he has just finished the university 

  Edit: About not having the option - my immortal vampire Dragonborn has 

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 11:18 AM EDT

  He said "The Elder Scrolls", to me that implies the entire series not just one entry.
• Vaaljørn

  

  • 92 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 11:43 AM EDT

  You raise a good point but I'm not sure the example is a good one. You said:

  finishing university feels like a big achievement right after completion but after 20 years it can get dwarfed by the other accomplishments.

  First, I hope so. I'd hate for my life to be defined by university! 

  Second, what other accomplishments will "dwarf" Paarth's supposed achievement? He just sits on the mountain. 

  Third, Paarth has not yet accomplished what we think. "No day goes by where I am not tempted to return to my inborn nature." The temptation is just as strong as ever. If he leaves the mountain--his place of meditation, the place where he attempts to control himself--mankind is screwed. Think of it like a drug addict. "No day goes by where I am not tempted to return to my [addiction]." In this scenario,  the moment the addict leaves the rehab center, he's getting high again. Will the other dovah's come to him to learn of the Way? I doubt it. Already one dragon, Odaviing, thinks the Way is a tyranny. No, Paarth will have to leave the mountain--the rehab center--to "convert" the other dragons. I'm banking on the fact that his will to dominate and destroy takes over the moment he sees Whiterun.

• hbi2k

  

  • 11 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 11:51 AM EDT

  Delphine is an idiot.

   

  "I stole the Horn because it was the only way I could be sure you're not a Thalmor trap, even though the Thalmor have spies everywhere and there's no reason to think they haven't grokked on to the fact that the Horn is important to the Greybeards and decided to snatch it for their own nefarious purposes.

   

  "Also I think they're bringing the dragons back and using them to conduct assassinations instead of in concert with their armies to steamroll across Cyrodiil, and I base that on absolutely nothing.

   

  " Go infiltrate the embassy, I'll be waiting right outside with your stuff when you get out.  J/k, I decided to take your stuff halfway across the continent and leave you stranded in a blizzard without your cold weather gear!

   

  " Now go make contact with my old friend who is even more paranoid than I am and has no reason to trust you; I'll be sitting here on my ass instead of making contact with him myself, myself being literally the only person in the world he might trust without a lot of unnecessary cajoling.

   

  "Let's go to Sky Haven Temple!  Wow, that's a lot of Forsworn in the way.  Some pretty high-level ones, too.  What's that?  You'd like to sneak quietly past them and avoid a massive and pointless battle?  Lolwut no I just shot arrows at them and now there are twenty of them who all want to say hello with fireballs!"

   

  After all that idiocy, I was kind of predisposed to deny her demands on general principle and was just grateful that the game finally gave me the option to do so without missing out on a whole bunch of Main Quest content.

   

  Shame; the Blades were so cool in Oblivion.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 12:36 PM EDT

  Cultural context, yeah. Also just things like personal experience, political beliefs, anything that affects your positions in the real world is likely to affect how you see things in fiction.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 12:38 PM EDT

  Maybe I misspoke, then. Still, I think the point could be made that the events of the Dragon War, being backstory for all of Tamriel (even if we didn't learn about them until TES:V), set the stage for everything that's come in every game. A retroactive backstory, but y'know.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 12:41 PM EDT

  That would be from the point of view of his plan; the Dragonborn is obviously the only potential wrench in that plan, provided they beat the brainwashing the Greybeards have been engaged in. Don't be a pawn! Kill Paarthurnax!

• Vaaljørn

  

  • 92 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 12:57 PM EDT

  This comment totally proves Phil's point. You've based the decision on whether Paarth should live or die on your hatred of Delphine. In fact the name Paarthurnax does not appear in the (almost) 300-word essay of why you hate Delphine. 

  I hate Delphine; therefore, I will allow Paarthurnax to live. I'm sure Paarth is breathing a sigh of relief.  

• MarkusMasterThief

  

  • 125 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 2:12 PM EDT

  Well said.  You definitely raised some thought-provoking points.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 2:37 PM EDT

  The Greybeards and Paarthurnax are idiots.

  "We will not tell you what you need to know out of fear it will mess with your head and turn you from your destiny."

  "We will not tell you why you are a Dragonborn because Alduin maybe shouldn't be stopped." Da fuq? Does Arngeir even listen to himself?

  Which one is it, lads? Do I stop Alduin as the prophecy you didn't tell me about says, or do I let him continue because it's part of the cycle?

  "We'll do nothing about the state Skyrim is in because we're pacifists and are content to let the world burn around us."

  "Clear Skies. This will be your last gift from us." Gee thanks. The Blades are giving me actual useful info rather than 'we'll tell you when you're older' and have given me items and blessings which will actually help me fight dragons.  You know, that job I'm supposed to be doing?

  "As a test we'll send you to retrieve a horn because you're absorption of a dragon's soul, quick mastery of the 3 shitty shout words we've taught you isn't proof enough. No, only a dragonborn can get the horn. (Shh, don't tell him about the secret back door guys).

  Paarthurnax:

  "The Blades are wise not to trust me." On account of you being a dragon and all?

  "Not a day goes by in which I'm not tempted to burn farms, roast humans and rule my territory." What, all that dragony stuff? Could be because you're a dragon and all?  Just putting it out there.  

  "But it's ok because I know I can be trusted"  I guess I was worried over nothing.

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 2:43 PM EDT

  Evidently you have not witnessed how overpowered Clear Skies is. I'd put an emoticon there but I'm being totally serious.
• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 2:43 PM EDT

  ^ This. 

  Plus, the only useful info the Blades give you is that there is such a shout as Dragonrend and send you to Greybeards for more information... 

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 2:49 PM EDT

  Look at the hoops they make you jump through to get it.

  All I'm saying is that if you start judging the characters based on the poor story writing than both sides can be seen as total idiots. The fact hbi2k wrote that in defence of his Paarthurnax choice but didn't acknowledge the stupidity of the side he picked tells me most Paarthy fans are actually just burying their heads in the sand.

  Is that all they give you Vaz? How about the knowledge of what it means to be Dragonborn? The prophecy and all that. When you tell Arngeir he's like how did you find out? Nope. Nope, we won't help you anymore."

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 2:52 PM EDT

   shoutIt's a good

  Edit: What I actually said before Ning devoured my words like Paarthurnax will inevitably do to Whiterun's inhabitants is:

  Clear Skies is a good shout and it does help in Sovngarde. The Greybeards didn't know this when they so reluctantly give it you. At that point in the game it is unclear if they even want Alduin defeated, which is just  plain stupid.

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 13, 2015 2:56 PM EDT

  Who cares about the prophecy? Necessity to kill Alduin is something I deduced without their help. My destiny is my own, I can choose to leave Alduin alive for all I care (even if it will be stupid in the long run). Really, the only reason they are in the game is to provide the player with an opportunity to kill some named Thalmor NPCs and to present those in the bad light. I can easily make adjustments to the main quest script so that it would not require Blades at all. Send the Dragonborn to the College earlier so he can get information on Alduin, find a book with the tale of Alduin's Wall, return to the Greybeards and proceed normally. Can you do it with the Greybeards? 

  Oh, and I replied to you in the page 5