Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 5:00 PM EDT

  "Why? Probably because she directly confronts the player's ego and dares speak her mind."

  Well it's better than that 'strong, tough woman' thing you were spouting way back when.
  

• Leon

  

  • 131 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 5:01 PM EDT

  I can see your point, but there are none except for the Blades that with for him to die. No masses that wish for his death, without him the rebellion would've probably never gone through. And as you say, the Way of the Voice is against his very nature, yet he does uphold it.
  But at the end of the game there is evidence that he might go back and i get the feeling he will force The way of the Voice unto other dragons, making him the most powerful dragon, thus their leader. That might not sound bad, but being the new chief of dragons makes him very powerful and power does corrupt.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 5:06 PM EDT

  I'm more than willing to bet that if anyone else actually knew of Paarthurnax, the mobs would come. That's why the Greybeards keep him secret.
• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 5:07 PM EDT

  I still stand by that to some degree. In the video game industry female protagonists are still a topical discussion, as unbelievable as that is in this day and age we still don't have many heroines.

  I don't think the world is ready yet for a middle-aged woman who dares stand up for what she believes in.

  "I'm the Dragonborn, how dare this old bitch tell me what to do, blah, blah, blah, she must die"

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 5:09 PM EDT

  The Emperors were complicit too. I wonder what the old Grandmasters like Jauphre had to say on the subject? I doubt they'd have been altogether happy with that Imperial Decree.

• Leon

  

  • 131 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 5:30 PM EDT

  They would absolutely try to kill him.
• HumanOfPrey

  

  • 168 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 5:40 PM EDT

  As for Delphine's point, surely one can concede she has one? How can one trust a traitor, especially one who's name - their very being - is one of ambition?

  People do say I love peace and of course I can't expect others to be like me, that's just absurd. However, I still have absolutely no respect to people who are that irrational and vengeful, such as Delphine. Perhaps I'm being lenient to Paarthurnax, but he isn't merely apologizing. He said that the Blades are wise to not trust him because dragons are born to dominate. However, he did so much to atone for his sins, and therefore deserves my trust. Just as he said, Zin krif horvut se suleyk (honor is fighting the lure of power). And he would be a fool to try double cross me.

• AncienTzSlayeR

  

  • 19 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 5:55 PM EDT

  There is an awesome mod called the Paarthurnax Dilemma

  ( http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/18465/? ) 

  I use this to complete the quest without killing Paarthurnax. It allows the character to take control as dragonborn and make the damn Blades do their fking job and serve him/her. 

  And I choose not to kill Paarthurnax because it simply is not the right thing to do. Everyone deserves a second chance, especially once they've repented. When someone has done evil, but then grown to hate what they did, and have changed, they do not deserve to die. As Paarthurnax said, "What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" 

  And the latter is better. A person who was born good has done nothing inherently good. A person who overcomes their evil nature has done a great deed of good. 

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 6:17 PM EDT

  You used a war criminal example (yes, I'm going to play that card ) but in that case, those criminals face a trial and facts need to be presented that prove their guilt. In this case, there is no trial and facts, there are only Delphine and Esbern (clearly biased individuals) who order a hit on a dragon. However, there is another example which I'll try to illustrate below.

  Due to my nationality I'm acquainted with war crimes and punishment for them. Turkey still denies the genocide they done to my people, an atrocious war crime recognized by 2 countries and 43 US states. A man named Soghomon Tehlirian shot one of the organizers in Berlin after German court found him not guilty and freed. The same court later found Tehlirian not guilty in murder, despite him not denying it. 

  So there we have it. Is Delphine right? Yes. Is Paarthurnax guilty? Most likely. Should he live? Now that's a tough question. He must die as a retribution for his deeds back then. But by killing him you kill the only dragon willing to cooperate with mortals, the one who is willing to teach the other dragons his way. Killing him destroys the hope of peacefully coexisting with dragons in the future. 

  These are the facts. Will you kill him as a retribution for the millions he had killed in the past but potentially dooming millions in the future? Or will you let a mass murderer live with hope that dragons and mortals will be able to coexist peacefully in the future? I choose the latter. If he betrays my trust, I'll kill him myself 

• HumanOfPrey

  

  • 168 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 7:00 PM EDT

  So there we have it. Is Delphine right? Yes. Is Paarthurnax guilty? Most likely. Should he live? Now that's a tough question. He must die as a retribution for his deeds back then. But by killing him you kill the only dragon willing to cooperate with mortals, the one who is willing to teach the other dragons his way. Killing him destroys the hope of peacefully coexisting with dragons in the future.

  Making a logical analysis of your reply, I think this is why the Blades so desperately want to kill Paarthurnax. From my point of view, the goal of Blades is to restore their glory as dragon slayers and Paarthurnax is the main obstacle. For that, they give you direct order to kill him. Why? Because Paarthurnax wishes to bring all dragons to the Way of the Voice. That means if he succeeds, dragons will become allies of men, mer and beast races. Now, the Blades are dragon slayers, right? If all dragons are good, would Tamriel need dragon slayers? I don't think so.

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 7:04 PM EDT

  That's certainly a possibility. 

  P.S. In the post above it's 22 countries, not 2.  

• ShinJin

  

  • 457 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 7:40 PM EDT

  Now there's a good point: there is a LOT of hate directed at Delphine... an inordinate, irrational amount. Am I resentful at times that she throws an ultimatum at me? You betcha. But I feel equally resentful of Esbern as well.
  
  But to want to run her through with a pike, toss her body in a cage for three months, and then toss the remains in the bottom of a public pit toilet seems a bit excessive. There are plenty of people out there that have made me feel resentful at one time or another, and I haven't killed any of them (I was acquitted xD).
  
  If Delphine gives you a "You can be with the dragon, or you can be with The Blades", and you don't want to kill the dragon... then just don't be a Blade. If, however, she tries to take you out... well THEN it's time to take things personally ;D
• Noah

  

  • 3 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 8:04 PM EDT

  I think you're spot-on. Paarthurnax should live.

• Curse Never Dying

  

  • 485 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 8:10 PM EDT

  I killed him for sport, the only time I advanced the story far enough to meet him. 

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 8:24 PM EDT

  That mod is written like hilariously bad fanfiction (which, come to think of it, it technically is). I like the idea of persuading the Blades that keeping Paarthurnax alive is desirable, but whoever wrote that thing took it straight into Mary Sue fixfic territory.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 8:37 PM EDT

  Very much so.

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 8:39 PM EDT

  Yeah, I still think you're dead wrong. No reason to assume that at all. "Angry, bitter, and paranoid" characters are often disliked, especially if they order the death of a well-liked character.

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 8:40 PM EDT

  Is that the one with Dov language dialogue?

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 8:49 PM EDT

  That explains Batman's lack of popularity then Bitter and angry characters are the most interesting and in Delphine's case these characteristics say a lot about her. Even then they are played up, in most conversations she behaves like any other npc.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 8:52 PM EDT

  I've also found that her attitude is often exaggerated.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 9:02 PM EDT

  Or will you let a mass murderer live with hope that dragons and mortals will be able to coexist peacefully in the future?

  Yeah and we'll all live happily ever after in Lala land and dogs and cats will dance with each other in the moonlight. Damn hippies. Now go and teach spiders to act like fluffy bunnies   They're dragons for chrissake.

  I wonder if this is what the Emperors wanted too. Giants were protected under Imperial law too, weren't they?

  I get your point above, it harkens back to Incomitatus' argument back in the day. We are looking at this whole thing through the eyes of modern courts and justice systems, but the reality of Skyrim is executions on a jarl's say so.

  Plus, from Delphine's viewpoint there exists a certain symbiosis between the Blades and the Emperor/Dragonborn. A lot is made of "the Blades should serve the Dragonborn! Blah, blah blah, I'm all powerfull yada yada..." but in actuality it started out of necessity. Why protect the Dragonborn? Because he's the only one who can kill a dragon permanently. That's a bottom line I can respect and it makes perfect sense for this to be the same reason to protect the emperors. Why protect the emperor? Because he's the only one who can light the Dragonfires, wear the Amulet of Kings and keep shut the doors of Oblivion.

  So Delphine and Esbern are confronted with a Dragonborn who is not doing his/her job but we all expect her to understand?

  Empathy guys. Get some.

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 9:24 PM EDT

  Why do you bring Delphine here? I understand her reasons well enough. It doesn't mean I agree with her though. :P Read King Edward for an example of dragons coexisting peacefully with mortals. It is not that far-fetched. They are not like the Reapers lol :D
• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 9:24 PM EDT

  Yeah, look at how bitter and angry Batman is.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 9:37 PM EDT

  To me the way Delphine is viewed is intrinsically tied up with people's views on Paarthurnax so I felt analysing her is important to the debate. The Blades were the good guys in Morrowind and Oblivion but most choose Paarthy and the Greybeards over Delphine and the Blades.

  I wonder how things may have been different if it were Baurus asking the player to kill Paarthurnax? This guy and Jauphre are heroes in TES IV and can even die for the Empire if you are not careful. By the time those occasional risks come around you feel attached to them. If one of them were to tell the dragonborn what to do, would we have as many "fuck you Baurus you bastard, die" comments as we do for Delphine? It's all emotion dictating ego.

  As for King Ed it is a good source but I'm afraid it is somewhat obsolete. The ideas and themes have evolved, much as how Darkness and Light from the same era has evolved into The Monomyth and Gods and Worship. The whole history of the Dragon War has painted the creatures in a much different light.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  April 12, 2015 9:49 PM EDT

  We're allowing cartoons as evidence? How can I defend myself against this kind of testimony?

  

  That was actually quite a moving and emotional clip.