Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:20 PM EDT

  Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.
  
  
  Quote from the Thalmor Dossier on him.
• Deleted Member

  
   

  June 10, 2014 5:22 PM EDT

  That doesnt sound like a a sleeper agent to me. 

• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:23 PM EDT

  And you missed my other post about this, Alduin is the greatest creation of the god of time! No engineering, or Androids had any part of this, the instance I'm referring to MK says Pelinial and many others are time traveling Androids from the future.
• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:25 PM EDT

  Oh, it also describes Ulfric as an asset. He is uncooperative to Direct Contact, it says nothing about him being contacted in other ways.
• Tae-Rai

  

  • 622 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:26 PM EDT

  Android are robots that are designed to look and act lik humans, and I don't recall anything like that in TES.
• Chris

  

  • 1441 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:29 PM EDT

  Why would he very in contact with Domnion agents? What, are they blackmailing him?
• Deleted Member

  
   

  June 10, 2014 5:30 PM EDT

  So...that means what?
• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:31 PM EDT

  Sorry, but it's not canon. None of this is backed up by anything in any elder scrolls game or publication, was not in any ingame book, was not in any spoken dialogue, no member of the Thalmor (who are usually pretty open about their goals) ever states this, no enemy of the Thalmor even ever states this, etc. The best you could offer in defense is a vague throwaway line from Esbern. Michael Kirkbride's stuff is interesting, but since Beth has no connection with it, and Kirk had nothing to do with Skyrim or any of the books, it is essentially little more than employee fanfiction. Well written and interesting fanfiction, but still fanfiction.
• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:32 PM EDT

  Did you read my post before the one you replied to? That post answers your question.
• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:35 PM EDT

  Nothing said about indirect contact, or that they couldn't make direct work again, meaning Ulfric is easily still doing what the Dominion wants.
• Not Provided

  

  • 9 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:43 PM EDT

  Naw, that would just lead to another Kalpa, so they'd still be trapped in the Mundus. They want to end the Kalpic Cycle all-together.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  June 10, 2014 5:49 PM EDT

  No, it doesn't. America can contact North Korea or Iran, but it doesn't mean they are in bed with one another.
• Not Provided

  

  • 9 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:51 PM EDT

  You're operating on the assumption he's just coming up with all of this now. The Thalmor have been around for over a decade, we're just seeing them crawl out of the woodwork for the first time now. Sure, we don't know for a fact that Bethesda considers the Altmeri Commentary On Talos "canon," but deny MK's authorship is absurd. Do you really think he hasn't discussed this with them?

  (Also, again, there is a nod to it in Ancano's dialogue).

• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 5:53 PM EDT

  Until we see it in game or in an official novel, it holds no credence.
• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 6:04 PM EDT

  And even though it isn't new, his stuff(that we're talking about here, I know he wrote some in-game books), like the Altmeri treatise never was in anything official, novel or game.
• Not Provided

  

  • 9 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 6:05 PM EDT

  Personally I prefer to hold that "canon" should be determined by Bethesda-the-ever-shifting-collective-of-authors-who-created-Tamriel to Bethesda-the-nebulous-corporate-entity, but whatever floats your boat, man. Just let people suspend disbelief in whatever they like, rather than trying to shut people down for their ideas and trumpet the One-Divine-Canon-Truth that Bethesda themselves have always avoided like the plague.

• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 6:25 PM EDT

  But that is where we had a discussion in the Lore group, where I fought for(none of the other Lore hosts came in opposition of my interpretation) that we can only have official info be given, as it is the only standard we have between us all. You can believe what you okie personally but Fanfiction has it's own place(maybe the storytelling corner, you'd need to talk to other people about where), but in discussions like this, only official info works, because as I said, it is the only universal standard.
• Not Provided

  

  • 9 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 8:36 PM EDT

  I respect your personal preference, but honestly, I don't think having a universal standard is at all necessary. I don't know if you've ever been to /r/teslore on reddit or The Imperial Library Storyboard, but those communities hold strongly to the idea that canonicity is subjective, and it hasn't hurt discussion at all. If anything, it's blossomed a wonderfully helpful and creative group of people. So long as people are honest about their sources (i.e. "according to [X In-Game Source]" "according to this Temple Zero doc" "I think it would make sense if") and bring a sense of good-faith to discussion, it works perfectly well.

• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 8:44 PM EDT

  That's been accepted there, but we've excepted a stricter definition, it hurts discussion when people say the Altmer want to erase man from MK, yet that is conrary to other sources, even worse, to official sources. Same goes to 9th era time traveling androids, it just unnecessarily complicates and messes things up, especially with no official evidence of this except maybe Alduin being sent forward in time, which could easily be interpreted as banished until he's able to come back. We go along with the definitions that UESP utilizes(seeing how UESP has been used against me), yet we warn people to be cautious about the Imperial Library, we want to be one of those places that can be trusted to be accurate with the in-game info, without being diluted by theorycrafters like MK.
• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 10, 2014 8:47 PM EDT

  And like I said, we have places for discussions about these theories, but we try to keep them out of the Lore group, roleplaying group, and forum discussions like this where we are talking about and comparing stuff in-game.
  
  Here we discuss different factions, yet if a discussion was started on if MK's theories were viable, then it would be perfectly fine.
• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  June 11, 2014 1:16 AM EDT

  Something to keep in mind when contemplating Skyrim's civil war is that the game is designed so that the "good" side is whichever one you pick, i.e. which one's heroic and which one's evil depends on your point of view. As a result, the game is seeded with plenty of evidence to support either view- claiming stuff like "such-and-such NPC hates the Stormcloaks, which PROVES that Ulfric is an evil baby-eating monster" rather misses the point; there are plenty of other NPCs who think the opposite. Everyone in this game is biased.

  Personally, which side I support depends on how long its been since I played the other side. Right now I'm on the tail-end of a Stormlcoak period, but I've been feeling the urge to follow Hadvar. Biggest trouble is I haven't actually finished the Civil War on either side yet (I tend to get bored before I can); I love them both, but can't decide which one should be my "first."

• Chris

  

  • 1441 posts
   

  June 11, 2014 1:44 AM EDT

  Must.....resist....Hetalia...joke
• Sir Pennyth Roosevelt

  

  • 75 posts
   

  June 11, 2014 1:54 AM EDT

  I look at it this way

  Finish with the stormcloaks and then skyrim will look like windhelm(not really)

  Finish with the imperials and then skyrim will look like Solitude(again not really)

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  June 11, 2014 2:07 AM EDT

  Keep in mind that, while the Thalmor did manipulate Ulfric (and the Empire, I might add) into starting the Civil War, that doesn't mean that A) Ulfric and the Stormcloaks don't still have good reasons for what they're doing, or B) they actually want Ulfric to win. They want the war to continue for as long as possible, draining resources and manpower from the Empire.

  Either side winning is very bad for them- you either have a newly reunited Empire with a whole army full of combat-tested veterans or a fully independent Skyrim that owes absolutely nothing to the Dominion. (the terms of the White-Gold Concordat give the Thalmor a lot of influence over Imperial affairs, which is why all this mess started; if the Empire had just made peace with the Dominion but didn't allow the Thalmor so much access to its territory, it's likely none of this would have been necessary)

  Ulfric is not a sleeper agent; he is not a Thalmor toady; when they say "uncooperative to direct contact" they mean they can't control him by walking up and saying "Do this." Unlike with the Empire, if they want to manipulate Ulfric they have to do it through indirect means. (such as getting him pissed off enough at the Empire to start a rebellion) Ulfric is as much of an "asset" to the Thalmor as Tulluis- they just try and control him through different means. (as they try and control everyone)

• Spectre

  

  • 285 posts
   

  June 11, 2014 4:23 AM EDT

  Then why is he an asset after all of these events? And as I explained earlier, Ulfric winning would be handing at least most of Tamriel to the Dominion.