It does make sense even if you don't go all meta into Lunar Currency and such and just take into account the unwritten laws of power. One such law is that power always draws power. Now this simple sentence can be looked at from many angles but the simplest is just that the more powerful you are the more attention you draw and not just the attention of people or gods but even the metaphysical forces. You are seen with more than eyes. And if the guy says that they don't go out much cause shit reacts to them... Well, makes sense to me. I mean, if we just use the simple stone and water analogy here, where the stone is your soul and the water are the currents of magicka... The more powerful/bigger your soul/stone is the bigger the ripples when you throw it in the water. So that's just using a bit of common sense without going really meta, but it could still be easily applied to the Lunar Currency. What do you think, Philis?

Ah, I see how it works. However this thing about "more souls" feels somewhat wrong to me. I mean, it certainly is true in the case of the Daedric Princes, since it is known that a soul of a Daedra worshipper goes to the respective plane of Oblivion after death, but how can that apply to the Aedra? Isn't it mortals' actions that gives power to an Aedric deity rather than souls? Like, when a mortal follows the ways of that deity, commits actions that strengthen the presence of the deity's aspect in the world? Don't the souls of Aedra worshippers either reincarnate or ascend to Aetherius (unless it's Lorkhan of course...)?

Alright, now what if we spin it a little differently? You say that the actions of the worshippers strenghten the presense of the gods, but if we take the Lunar Currency into account...what if those actions strenghten the gods only after the souls pass on? Currency. You die, you pay with your deeds done in your life. Now that makes the gods quite awesome dickholes, eh? :D

I think it's not that straightforward. More like putting your currency into a bank rather than actually paying, so to say. The way you put it, this raises quite a few questions. What if a person has been worshipping more than one god during their life? Where would their soul go then? To the last one? Or would be split between them all? And how would reincarnation work then? And what about the gods themselves, they have been mortals once too, at least some of them. And what about those extremely powerful souls like this Psijic? Ones who maybe could become gods themselves?

Rather than in such a direct way, I suspect it works in several ways at the same time. While you live, your deeds strengthen all the gods you follow, and maybe even those you don't. If you are a worshipper of, let's say, Stendarr, you would more often act in ways that adhere to Stendarr's aspect and strengthen it. But then one day you go and become a vampire. And when you die your soul is bound for Coldharbor. But does that mean that all what you ahve done as a worshipper of Stendarr is forfeit? I doubt that. On the other hand if you don't become a vampire or something like that, when you die your soul reincarnates or ascends to Aetherius and at the same time it would add power to the aspects of every Aedra you have worshipped. Spiritual things aren't necessarily measured in the same ways as material stuff, huh?))

And, by the way))

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/KarverTheLorc]Karver the Lorc[/url] said:[/b]

You die, you pay with your deeds done in your life. Now that makes the gods quite awesome dickholes, eh? :D

[/blockquote]

No it doesn't. After all, the gods don't owe you anything. Besides, if you think about it, you might even want to be more cautious and responsible in your actions.

Well, to the Daedra it's absolutely that way, there is no smallest doubt about it. I would totally bet my Thalmor hat on that as well as my Thalmor robes)))

It doesn't seem like it can be the same with the Aedra though. The thing is, all the mortals, their souls, are actually et'Ada too. Just like the gods, only less powerful. Which means they are not just currency. It seems more like politics. Whatever party gathers more support is more powerful, something like that.

Also since the souls of those who follow the Aedra can ascend to Aetherius rather than are bound to a particular god's plane (again, unless it's Lorkhan), they actually give their worth of power to all of Aetherius, and Aetherius is the source of all magicka in the world, so in this way they power the whole Creation. This way it feels more right to me.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/KarverTheLorc]Karver the Lorc[/url] said:[/b]

It does make sense even if you don't go all meta into Lunar Currency and such and just take into account the unwritten laws of power. One such law is that power always draws power. Now this simple sentence can be looked at from many angles but the simplest is just that the more powerful you are the more attention you draw and not just the attention of people or gods but even the metaphysical forces. You are seen with more than eyes. And if the guy says that they don't go out much cause shit reacts to them... Well, makes sense to me. I mean, if we just use the simple stone and water analogy here, where the stone is your soul and the water are the currents of magicka... The more powerful/bigger your soul/stone is the bigger the ripples when you throw it in the water. So that's just using a bit of common sense without going really meta, but it could still be easily applied to the Lunar Currency. What do you think, Philis?

[/blockquote]

What do I think? Right now, after reading your discussion with Thuri, I'm thinking of justiciars sans hats and robes. My mind remains a simple one. More on topic, though, I think what your saying is clever on a few levels. Firstly there's the societal level where power attracts the powerful or garners awe and respect. Then there's the more metaphysical level where there is evidence to support this process, such as the Greybeards recognising a Dovahkiin or, more accurately, Divayth Fyr entering the Evergloam during the events of CWC and almost immediately being sensed by Nocturnal. Into her still waters, Fyr would have been a massive pebble indeed.

So I'm just speculating on the how and why of it. I think before I've just seen magicka as this specific stuff, this creatia, complicated and open to interpretation as ever. But now I'm kind of thinking of it as also being something more tangible that, in addition to all its complexity, also fulfils a similar role to that which gravity plays in our universe.

Because the natural laws are different, and the planets don't technically orbit anything nor are they spherical, the stabilising element which is gravity in our universe is absent or inexact in TES. We've spoken often about tonal magic, the Earthbones, and how those laws can be altered, but to actually say what those Earthbones are has been pretty nebulous. If we take the magicka = gravity into account, the Earthbone that is gravity was a mighty, mighty spirit with huge (TES version of) mass.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]

Well, to the Daedra it's absolutely that way, there is no smallest doubt about it. I would totally bet my Thalmor hat on that as well as my Thalmor robes)))

It doesn't seem like it can be the same with the Aedra though. The thing is, all the mortals, their souls, are actually et'Ada too. Just like the gods, only less powerful. Which means they are not just currency. It seems more like politics. Whatever party gathers more support is more powerful, something like that.

Also since the souls of those who follow the Aedra can ascend to Aetherius rather than are bound to a particular god's plane (again, unless it's Lorkhan), they actually give their worth of power to all of Aetherius, and Aetherius is the source of all magicka in the world, so in this way they power the whole Creation. This way it feels more right to me.

[/blockquote]

I totally get what you're saying, and your points about mortal actions being an expression of whatever god's sphere and thus strengthening them through belief and action is absolutely right as I see it.  But for me there is no distinction in terms of Aetherius or specific plane.

Let's do a thought experiment to try and articualte what I mean:

Danica Puresprings is on her deathbed. All her life she has been devoted to Kynareth, brought many pilgrims to the Gildergreen, converted many souls to the harmony of nature, and lots of other good shit. Kynareth has been strengthened by these acts in a number of ways because Kynareth is her sphere. So every tree planted in her name (be that name Kyne, Y'phre, or Kynareth), her sphere gains influence. For every person converted, also means more souls go to her upon death.

Danica says her final prayers to her goddess before exhaling her last breath. That breath, or soul in the Nordic view, drifts up to Aetherius where there sits a number of greater and lesser spirits in that realm of pure spirit (magicka). That realm is much like space, with some very heavy bodies weighing on the magickal fabric like planets sit upon spacetime. Some are smaller, like Mara sitting next to the Kyne planet, or julianos over there being rather small because he's only really just been accepted back. But Kynareth? She's a huge spirit. Danica's spirit goes to her, in aetherius, and her spirit matter makes Kynareth that little bit bigger.

Bringing Lorkhan into it is shrewd, though.

The echo of the Void is Oblivion. The echo of Oblivion is now mortal death. Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE—either to the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion. Vehk’s name for this transaction, mentioned above, is “lunar currency”.  

Mundus to Mortal Death: centerpoint to the soon recycled. Love Letter

In many ways, Lorkhan is Nirn much like Mara is the Mara plane(t). He is the spirit of Nirn. Nirn sits upon the Mundus like planet earth sitsupon spacetime, a huge stone of mass. Except it's not mass, but rather magicka. Magicka streaming down from Aetherius, or magicka from souls who get washed, recycled, and flow back into Lorkhan until one out of hundreds of millions says and truly understands, "I AM AND I ARE ALL WE." He is the banker, and the banker never loses and his interest rates are astronomical.

Our Danica, then, has her AE left in Kynareth's care, but her energy flows into the dreamsleeve to get washed back up on the shores of Nirn. But while Kynareth recieves a portion of that credit, she is an Aedra and thus is tied to the Mundus unlike the Daedra. All souls within the Mundus make their way back to the banker.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

Danica Puresprings is on her deathbed. All her life she has been devoted to Kynareth, brought many pilgrims to the Gildergreen, converted many souls to the harmony of nature, and lots of other good shit. Kynareth has been strengthened by these acts in a number of ways because Kynareth is her sphere. So every tree planted in her name (be that name Kyne, Y'phre, or Kynareth), her sphere gains influence. For every person converted, also means more souls go to her upon death.

Danica says her final prayers to her goddess before exhaling her last breath. That breath, or soul in the Nordic view, drifts up to Aetherius where there sits a number of greater and lesser spirits in that realm of pure spirit (magicka). That realm is much like space, with some very heavy bodies weighing on the magickal fabric like planets sit upon spacetime. Some are smaller, like Mara sitting next to the Kyne planet, or julianos over there being rather small because he's only really just been accepted back. But Kynareth? She's a huge spirit. Danica's spirit goes to her, in aetherius, and her spirit matter makes Kynareth that little bit bigger.

Bringing Lorkhan into it is shrewd, though.

The echo of the Void is Oblivion. The echo of Oblivion is now mortal death. Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE—either to the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion. Vehk’s name for this transaction, mentioned above, is “lunar currency”.  

Mundus to Mortal Death: centerpoint to the soon recycled. Love Letter

In many ways, Lorkhan is Nirn much like Mara is the Mare plane(t). He is the spirit of Nirn. Nirn sits upon the Mundus like planet earth, a huge stone of mass. Except it's not, but rather magicka. Magicka streaming down from Aetherius, or magicka from souls who get washed, recycled, and flow back into Lorkhan until one out of hundreds of millions says and truly understands, "I AM AND I ARE ALL WE." He is the banker, and the banker never loses and his interest rates are astronomical.

Our Danica, then, has her AE left in Kynareth's care, but her energy flows into the dreamsleeve to get washed back up on the shores of Nirn. But while Kynareth recieves a portion of that credit, she is an Aedra and thus is tied to the Mundus unlike the Daedra. All souls within the Mundus make there way back to the banker.

[/blockquote]

Yes, this is how it goes, you, naturally, expressed it in a much more beautiful and precise way than this Justiciar (who retains her hat and robes, since she didn't actually lose the bet, huh?)) What's going on with me, I'm starting to speak like a Khajiit...)), however, what would change in this example if it was not Danica but someone like that ceruval from Psijic Order, or Divayth Fyr, or even his old friend (he wasn't a god anymore when he died, was he)? These mer would be more than just little spirits, or am I wrong?

As for Lorkhan, yes, he is Nirn, but what about those Nord souls sitting and drinking mead all day in Sovngarde?

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]

Yes, this is how it goes, you, naturally, expressed it in a much more beautiful and precise way than this Justiciar (who retains her hat and robes, since she didn't actually lose the bet, huh?)) What's going on with me, I'm starting to speak like a Khajiit...)), however, what would change in this example if it was not Danica but someone like that ceruval from Psijic Order, or Divayth Fyr, or even his old friend (he wasn't a god anymore when he died, was he)? These mer would be more than just little spirits, or am I wrong?

As for Lorkhan, yes, he is Nirn, but what about those Nord souls sitting and drinking mead all day in Sovngarde?

[/blockquote]

Haha, ok! :D No golden flesh today.

I'd actually like to ask that question of you. What do you think would happen to someone like Loremaster Celarus or Divayth Fyr?

As for the Nords in Sovngarde, well that's tricky. Sovngarde is Shor's realm, and Shor is the Nordic Lorkhan. So it's unlikely they're in Aetherius. That's not the first time we visit an aspect of Lorkhan's realm, though. In ESO we visit the Den of Lorkhaj along with the Demiplane of Jode. In that game we essentially visit the moons. It's possible that all realms have demiplanes, although we only really ever see Daedric demiplanes.

I don't think Sovngarde is on the moon, though - I'm simply not sure without checking whether the myth of the flesh divinity is relevant in Nordic myth, but it is possible. Regardless, I think Sovngarde is much "closer" to Tamriel than Aetherius is. Those Nords up there, drinking and boasting, swiving and ploughing, they await the final battle at the end of time - they're not there forever. Maybe they are in the banker's most secure vaults? Only the very special treasures end up there.

As I have said before, I believe that all souls are et'Ada, just some are more powerful than others. Every soul has a purpose in the Dream of Anu and thus, every soul affects the Creation, even if it's in a very subtle way. A more powerful soul, naturally, affects it stronger, and it can add much more power to an aspect of a deity or maybe even become a new aspect unto itself? It is quite apparent (especially if we look at the Aldmeri pantheon) that to be a god one doesn't really need to achieve CHIM or create Dragon Breaks. What makes a soul into a god is the impact that soul has made on in the world. Of course nothing can make a larger impact than the creation of the world itself, thus there are and will be no gods greater than the Aedra, but lesser deities can be followed too, why not.

Sovngarde indeed does seem like it is some kind of a demiplane rather than located in either Aetherius or Oblivion. Lorkhan is an odd fellow after all. Special tresures, huh? Looks more like an army for that final battle (a battle between who and who exactly, btw? We don't see other Aedra gathering armies...).