Honestly it's a hard one and I'm not sure how to answer you. The Enantiomorph only appears in an in-game sources just once, the other mentions of that word are in oog texts. But the concept itself is of the Rebel, the King, and the Witness - and how two or even all three can be indistinguishable from each other until one of them wins. It's a recreation of events that go right back up the gradient ladder to Anu, Padomay, and Nir. That interplay of two forces witnessed by a maimed or wounded observer is echoed over and over again in a pattern that keeps repeating.

We see it in the myths of Convention, we see it with Alessia and King Hrol, we see it at the Battle of Red Mountain, we see it with Pelinal and Alessia,we see it with Hjalti, Wulfharth, and Arctus... It's there in-game as a pattern to be studied and often happens happens at a Dragon Break. Remember the old debates about Vivec being both an ascended mortal and also a god who always was a god? In brief, that's bacause a dragon break allows history to be edited to a degree.

For instance, there's you, me, and Pocky. We're three people who have never met. During a dragon break, one of us comes along and edits our posts so that what you said is now beneath my name, what Pocky said is beneath yours, and what I said is beneath Pocky's. The dragon remembers the original posters, but when he gets his shit together he sees that now Pocky looks so much like me that he must have been me all along, and I look so much like you that i must have always been you. We've ended up merging in the eyes of the dragon.

Reanacting something of such significance carries great weight in TES lore. Like, for us to become Sheogorath - to mantle him - we needed to take very deliberate steps. At a certain point we become indistinguishable from him. We "walked like him until he must walk like us" and so we become him. The enantiomorph is similar in that it recreates something specific and has measurable consequences. In the case of Talos, that consequence is that he becomes a god. We know he's a god because we need Blood of a Divine in a TES IV quest and when we pray at his shrines we receive a blessing.

However, for it all to make sense we pretty much need to delve into oog sources to help point us in the right direction. So to me your argument sort of goes like this: "This doesn't make sense unless we read those oog sources but I'm not going to." Therefore of course it doesn't make sense, you know?

The best oog source for you not to read on this subject is probably Rebel's Return :D

The Enantiomorph, in all instances of it, seems to be about ascending, sorta level up. It is an equation. You can put anything as variablres, the only thing that changes is the answer. That's why all the participants are indistinguishable before one of them wins. It's because the one who wins is the only one who matters. The winner is the one who gets to level up. But again, nothing about merging all three into one. Interchanging maybe, but not merging.

It's also a change. None of the participants remains unchanged.

To mantle someone is to take their place, their function in the world. Right? At least so it seems in the example with Sheogorath. The CoC become Sheogorath and stops being himself, even though he still retains his old memories. A Dragon Break makes it as if something that was changed was always that way. So if the CoC became Sheogorath during a Dragon Break, then it would be as if he always was Sheogorath.

But how is it the same with Lorkhan and Talos? Talos didn't take Lorkhan's place, if anything, he created a brand new one that never was before, just for himself. And Lorkhan remained exactly where he was.

I don't disregard all the oog sources. Quite the opposite, I'm all for them, as long as they actually provide a viable explanation. I mean, one that makes sense, not one of the type "because MK said so". And what a nice article. What happened with Lorkhan's heart and what it must entail for the world and for Lorkhan himself is a really interesting question. It's a really big thing, surely it should bring forth some significant change? What do you think?

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]

How Hjalti is suddenly a Breton? Nords would beat you for that, lol.

Also I was under the impression that "Nirn" means "arena", and "the Grey Maybe" refers to the Aurbis as a whole...

[/blockquote]

There is some lore out there disputing whether or not Tiber Septim was a Nord or Breton. 

At this point I'm personally pretty sure the canon declaration of Tiber Septim's race is that he was from Atmora, and thus either one of the race of men who eventually became Nords of maybe just a Nord himself. From what I can tell, a lot of the lore disputing Tiber Septim's ancestry could have come from different writers tinkering with the concept.

They may have been wanting to throw a bit of mystery on the subject, or make it just contested enough for people to get curious. Part of the fun I used to have when I had time to write for long stretches of time was to perposefully leave what I called "The fog of time", little blanks or points of theological or historical contention.

I dunno. I'm not going to declare myself an authority, either. From what I can tell, though, that's about where it's at.

Oh and Thorien I found the reference to Nirn you were talking about on the Elder Scrolls Wiki. It's under the Trivia section of the page on Nirn. You'll have to scroll to the Trivia section of the page like an animal, though, because I've had most of a bottle of wine and couldn't figure out anchor links with whatever format we use on Tamrielvault. Sorry. :(

Hjalti was born at the end of the Second Era, so he just couldn't be born in Atmora because men hadn't lived there for quite some time. But an additional point to what I'm saying is that since Hjalti spread that propaganda that he was from Atmora and people believed it, then probably it was a known fact that he was a Nord, because no one would believe that a Breton was born in Atmora.

And while the wiki is not the place where I'd look, (it is rather unreliable in comparison to UESP) I do remember reading that about Nirn, many times. There isn't much to scroll anyway)))

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]

The Enantiomorph, in all instances of it, seems to be about ascending, sorta level up. It is an equation. You can put anything as variablres, the only thing that changes is the answer. That's why all the participants are indistinguishable before one of them wins. It's because the one who wins is the only one who matters. The winner is the one who gets to level up. But again, nothing about merging all three into one. Interchanging maybe, but not merging.

It's also a change. None of the participants remains unchanged.

To mantle someone is to take their place, their function in the world. Right? At least so it seems in the example with Sheogorath. The CoC become Sheogorath and stops being himself, even though he still retains his old memories. A Dragon Break makes it as if something that was changed was always that way. So if the CoC became Sheogorath during a Dragon Break, then it would be as if he always was Sheogorath.

But how is it the same with Lorkhan and Talos? Talos didn't take Lorkhan's place, if anything, he created a brand new one that never was before, just for himself. And Lorkhan remained exactly where he was.

I don't disregard all the oog sources. Quite the opposite, I'm all for them, as long as they actually provide a viable explanation. I mean, one that makes sense, not one of the type "because MK said so". And what a nice article. What happened with Lorkhan's heart and what it must entail for the world and for Lorkhan himself is a really interesting question. It's a really big thing, surely it should bring forth some significant change? What do you think?

[/blockquote]

Yeah, an equation is a good way of looking at it. It's also often described in physics terms about collapsing waveforms, too. For clarity, though, when I say "merging" it's not a literal thing like thes guys getting smashed together to become one. I mean it in a more mythological sense in that they are seen as one in the eyes of the universe.So they've merged to become indistinguishable from each other in terms of life and deeds at times. It's just terminology and trying to convey the process.

As for Talos becoming Lorkhan, I think we need to factor in CHIM. Remember how in the Endeavor it's described as "One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within." CHIm is a subject that crops up quite often, we see it in the Sermons, we see it in Mankar's Commentaries, and we see an example of a zero sum in Eat the Dreamer (another book referenced in game that doesn't actually exist in game). In short, CHIM allows one to know I and the We at the same time - You can know and keep your identity, youe AE, yet still know that you are a fragment of a dreaming godhead.

So, he mantles Lorkhan and takes the Missing God's rightful place - the place he was cast from - but is able to be free and keep his own AE because of CHIM. But I don't think he's the one who has succeeded where Lorkhan failed, either. like, I don't think it was ever Lorkhan's intent to be that one. What he does do is keep cropping up when needed to protect the world from the forces and Events which threaten it. I suppose it's like he becomes a mortal Tower. When all the rest fall and the the end hurtles towards us, Talos stands there and is like, "get though me first" - which is possibly what the whole Thalmor plan is, but that's beyond this here post.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

Yeah, an equation is a good way of looking at it. It's also often described in physics terms about collapsing waveforms, too. For clarity, though, when I say "merging" it's not a literal thing like thes guys getting smashed together to become one. I mean it in a more mythological sense in that they are seen as one in the eyes of the universe.So they've merged to become indistinguishable from each other in terms of life and deeds at times. It's just terminology and trying to convey the process.

[/blockquote]

I wouldn't generalize so much. They are only indistinguishable in the moment of the Enantiomorph itself, and only when viewed as its participants. In all the other situations they may have other roles and are totally distinguishable. The Enantiomorph is a point of interjection, that is why they are indistinguishable. What happens before and after it is clearly different for all of them. It is a point of change, and their lives become divided to before and after, but still they are not the same. They can switch places, but interchangeable and indistinguishable are not the same thing.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

As for Talos becoming Lorkhan, I think we need to factor in CHIM. Remember how in the Endeavor it's described as "One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within." CHIm is a subject that crops up quite often, we see it in the Sermons, we see it in Mankar's Commentaries, and we see an example of a zero sum in Eat the Dreamer (another book referenced in game that doesn't actually exist in game). In short, CHIM allows one to know I and the We at the same time - You can know and keep your identity, youe AE, yet still know that you are a fragment of a dreaming godhead.

So, he mantles Lorkhan and takes the Missing God's rightful place - the place he was cast from - but is able to be free and keep his own AE because of CHIM. But I don't think he's the one who has succeeded where Lorkhan failed, either. like, I don't think it was ever Lorkhan's intent to be that one. What he does do is keep cropping up when needed to protect the world from the forces and Events which threaten it. I suppose it's like he becomes a mortal Tower. When all the rest fall and the the end hurtles towards us, Talos stands there and is like, "get though me first" - which is possibly what the whole Thalmor plan is, but that's beyond this here post.

[/blockquote]

In what way does he mantle Lorkhan? Just because of the Enantiomorph? But it has happened many times, are you saying that every participant of every Enantiomorph that ever happened mantled Lorkhan? Why him? Why not Auri-El then? What leads you to believe that he takes specifically Lorkhan's place? What is the logic behind it? I don't see any implications of either this or him becoming any sort of Tower, protector, whatever. If anything, he just stands there and is like "look everyone, I am now a god and can do whatever I want, I'm sooo awesome!" Also he acts as the symbol of the Empire and human supremacy, but that has more to do with Imperial propaganda rather than with Talos himself.

Great to see you jumping back in the saddle with another lore article, Phil. And one on a subject that I greatly enjoy. I am a fan of the mythology surrounding Lorkhan and his many incarnations, which is how I see it. Much like you, a cyclical mortal Tower, destined to protect the world he had a hand, or rather a heart, in creating. And IMO, the Last Dragonborn is one such incarnation. Some disagree, but I think in that particular case, Dragonborn and Shezzarine are one and the same and that it's frankly not bound by the mortal race of his/her birth at this point. It doesn't matter. 

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]

I wouldn't generalize so much. They are only indistinguishable in the moment of the Enantiomorph itself, and only when viewed as its participants. In all the other situations they may have other roles and are totally distinguishable. The Enantiomorph is a point of interjection, that is why they are indistinguishable. What happens before and after it is clearly different for all of them. It is a point of change, and their lives become divided to before and after, but still they are not the same. They can switch places, but interchangeable and indistinguishable are not the same thing.

[/blockquote]

Yes but as discussed, it happens in Dragon Break. It's possible that in the same way Vivec was always a god yet also once was a street urchin, so Hjalti was both born Talos of Atmora and also Mr Early-Beard of Alcaire - both are true because one was Wulfhart's backstory but now belongs to Talos.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]

In what way does he mantle Lorkhan? Just because of the Enantiomorph? But it has happened many times, are you saying that every participant of every Enantiomorph that ever happened mantled Lorkhan? Why him? Why not Auri-El then? What leads you to believe that he takes specifically Lorkhan's place? What is the logic behind it? I don't see any implications of either this or him becoming any sort of Tower, protector, whatever. If anything, he just stands there and is like "look everyone, I am now a god and can do whatever I want, I'm sooo awesome!" Also he acts as the symbol of the Empire and human supremacy, but that has more to do with Imperial propaganda rather than with Talos himself.

[/blockquote]

Ok so this is a good topic to discusss. I'm pretty sure there's a lore article devoted to just Talos somewhere on this site. Anyway, The enantiomorph is like the last act in the process and the one which results in the apotheosis, but the Walking Way to become the Missing God starts much earlier. Whether he's villified or seen as a hero, Tiber does the impossible and creates a united Tamriel. That feat in itself echoes the accomplishment of Lorkhan and the creation of Mundus, and hell, even the fact he's either loved or hated echoes the Missing God. That and Hjalti effectively mantles Wulfharth during the process, too - Wulfharth being like the original Shezarrine and so the incarnation of Lorkhan.

I like that you see it as propaganda, and man, yes there's a lot of that. But there are few things which tell us of the importance of Talos: It's only his blood we can use to let Martin Septim do his ritual to enter Manky C's Paradise - without Talos having done what he had done, there would be no way to get that blood of a Divine. In order to defeat Umaril once and for all, we need the blessings of all the Divines. crucially, though, the final blessing needed comes from Talos. No other god has as much agency. Prior to Talos the Shezarrines are doing their best but are these half mad things or wrecking balls of change like a blunt instrument to solve a problem.

He does become a symbol of the empire and of humanity, very true, and that symbol is very important. So important that a bunch of extremist elves are going to incredible lengths to throw it down. Talos just won't be moved.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/LissetteLongChapper]The Long-Chapper[/url] said:[/b]

Great to see you jumping back in the saddle with another lore article, Phil. And one on a subject that I greatly enjoy. I am a fan of the mythology surrounding Lorkhan and his many incarnations, which is how I see it. Much like you, a cyclical mortal Tower, destined to protect the world he had a hand, or rather a heart, in creating. And IMO, the Last Dragonborn is one such incarnation. Some disagree, but I think in that particular case, Dragonborn and Shezzarine are one and the same and that it's frankly not bound by the mortal race of his/her birth at this point. It doesn't matter. 

[/blockquote]

Thanks Lis, we do share similar views :D It's like, one half of the two keeps sending down Dragonborn, the other half keeps sending Shezarrines. But it's only when time and space occupy the same point that shit really gets done - and neither of those two forces are racist, they are well and truly above it.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

Yes but as discussed, it happens in Dragon Break. It's possible that in the same way Vivec was always a god yet also once was a street urchin, so Hjalti was both born Talos of Atmora and also Mr Early-Beard of Alcaire - both are true because one was Wulfhart's backstory but now belongs to Talos.

[/blockquote]

Sotha Sil says: "Vivec craves radical freedom - the death of all limits and restrictions. He wishes to be all things at all times. Every race, every gender, every hero, both divine and finite... but in the end, he can only be Vivec." This is a very important thing, which speaks volumes, and not just about Vivec. I think that even gods, and even events that happen during Dragon Breaks obey certain laws. One of them, apparently is that one cannot become someone else. One can become something else, change qualities, function, places and times, all sorts of possibilities. But one cannot completely stop being oneself and become another. Same as Vivec, it applies to Hjalti. Whether he is from Alcaire or from Atmora, even if he he has retconned his whole life and made it an exact copy of Wulfharth's, he is still himself, not Wulfharth, just like Vivec will always be Vivec.

Also, Wulfharth is not exactly Lorkhan. As a Shezarrine, he has Lorkhan's personality and probably his memories, but he doesn't have his divine power, his original place in the world. He is not the god of change. Lorkhan, as he originally was, is long dead. So by copypasting Wulfharth's biography Hjalti can't become Lorkhan, he can only become #IAmSoAwesome Talos.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

Ok so this is a good topic to discusss. I'm pretty sure there's a lore article devoted to just Talos somewhere on this site. Anyway, The enantiomorph is like the last act in the process and the one which results in the apotheosis, but the Walking Way to become the Missing God starts much earlier. Whether he's villified or seen as a hero, Tiber does the impossible and creates a united Tamriel. That feat in itself echoes the accomplishment of Lorkhan and the creation of Mundus, and hell, even the fact he's either loved or hated echoes the Missing God. That and Hjalti effectively mantles Wulfharth during the process, too - Wulfharth being like the original Shezarrine and so the incarnation of Lorkhan.

[/blockquote]

That article relies so heavily on Kirkbride's stuff....

Just as I said above, retconning Wulfharth's biography as his own doesn't make him a Shezarrine. It's not biography that makes Wulfharth a Shezarrine, it's his soul, personality and memories, which Hjalti cannot make his own any more than Vivec can become someone else. Also since, as I said above, Wulfharth isn't exactly Lorkhan, if Hjalti mantled Wulfharth, he became... well, Ysmir)) A Nord hero. But he is still himself, not Wulfharth the Shezarrine.

Comparing a conquest to creating the world... Errr... seriously? The murder of millions just so Hjalti could be #IAmSoAwesome is the same as the creation of Mundus? Not to mention that  the Empire has never truly been a united Tamriel. Neither it was fully united at any moment of time (there always had been some war or two), nor was it the whole Tamriel. Places like Pyandonea and Orsinium weren't part of Hjalti's empire. The whole thing about united Tamriel is the biggest piece of propaganda of all.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

I like that you see it as propaganda, and man, yes there's a lot of that. But there are few things which tell us of the importance of Talos: It's only his blood we can use to let Martin Septim do his ritual to enter Manky C's Paradise - without Talos having done what he had done, there would be no way to get that blood of a Divine. In order to defeat Umaril once and for all, we need the blessings of all the Divines. crucially, though, the final blessing needed comes from Talos. No other god has as much agency. Prior to Talos the Shezarrines are doing their best but are these half mad things or wrecking balls of change like a blunt instrument to solve a problem.

He does become a symbol of the empire and of humanity, very true, and that symbol is very important. So important that a bunch of extremist elves are going to incredible lengths to throw it down. Talos just won't be moved.

[/blockquote]

I'm not saying he is not a god, he most likely is. But so is Boethiah, Molag Bal and other wonderful fellows. Also, the way blessings seem to work, it's not really a god that gives us a blessing, it's the faith of the god's worshippers that gives its aspect power. And sure you need a lot of power to defeat a fellow like Umaril.

Talos is important in the same way as... Alessia. He is #SoAwesome and the symbol of the Empire and men. Only because he is also a god, the people worshipping him actually give that symbol power. Which is the reason why the elves need to eradicate that worship in order to bring down their enemy, the Empire.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]

Sotha Sil says: "Vivec craves radical freedom - the death of all limits and restrictions. He wishes to be all things at all times. Every race, every gender, every hero, both divine and finite... but in the end, he can only be Vivec." This is a very important thing, which speaks volumes, and not just about Vivec. I think that even gods, and even events that happen during Dragon Breaks obey certain laws. One of them, apparently is that one cannot become someone else. One can become something else, change qualities, function, places and times, all sorts of possibilities. But one cannot completely stop being oneself and become another. Same as Vivec, it applies to Hjalti. Whether he is from Alcaire or from Atmora, even if he he has retconned his whole life and made it an exact copy of Wulfharth's, he is still himself, not Wulfharth, just like Vivec will always be Vivec.

Also, Wulfharth is not exactly Lorkhan. As a Shezarrine, he has Lorkhan's personality and probably his memories, but he doesn't have his divine power, his original place in the world. He is not the god of change. Lorkhan, as he originally was, is long dead. So by copypasting Wulfharth's biography Hjalti can't become Lorkhan, he can only become #IAmSoAwesome Talos.

[/blockquote]

That's a nice ideal, Thori, but one I think is demonstratably innacurate. If we think back to our own Sheo and CoC, where's our character? We meet Sheogorath in TES V but we don't meet our CoC. The Mad God tells us he remembers it, but apart from memory, the last vestiges of what was once our character has been swept away and replaced by Sheogorath. On the same subject, there was also Jyggalag.

Mankar Camoran is another example of someone becoming someone else, although in his case he did it to himself. Then there's Trinimac becoming Malacath... These just off the top of my head, pretty sure i can find more examples. So let's not argue for the sake of arguing, eh?

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]

That article relies so heavily on Kirkbride's stuff....

Just as I said above, retconning Wulfharth's biography as his own doesn't make him a Shezarrine. It's not biography that makes Wulfharth a Shezarrine, it's his soul, personality and memories, which Hjalti cannot make his own any more than Vivec can become someone else. Also since, as I said above, Wulfharth isn't exactly Lorkhan, if Hjalti mantled Wulfharth, he became... well, Ysmir)) A Nord hero. But he is still himself, not Wulfharth the Shezarrine.

Comparing a conquest to creating the world... Errr... seriously? The murder of millions just so Hjalti could be #IAmSoAwesome is the same as the creation of Mundus? Not to mention that  the Empire has never truly been a united Tamriel. Neither it was fully united at any moment of time (there always had been some war or two), nor was it the whole Tamriel. Places like Pyandonea and Orsinium weren't part of Hjalti's empire. The whole thing about united Tamriel is the biggest piece of propaganda of all.

[/blockquote]

And that's a bad thing....?

Conquest of the world mirroring the creation of Mundus, yes. Factor in the Ehlnofey wars and it becomes a little easier to see. Also, do you have a source saying Talos murdered millions?