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Discussion: The Viability of a Thalmor Dragonborn

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  • Member
    February 12, 2018

    Tysoyaha said:

    Everyone is the hero of their own story. I think that's why it's so hard to play characters like Thalmor. Play a necromancer who revels in gore and murder because "they're evil"? Yes please! How endearingly fictitious. Play a racist scumbag who legitimately believes themselves the hero because their genetic superiority justifies the atrocities they commit? Ugh...that's a little nauseating.

     

    What I find appealing about the Thalmor is their conviction. They go about attaining their goals methodically and with purpose. There's no wasted effort, and I think they are one of the better villians I've seen in recent video games. Their ideology is insidious and you can probably play the game casually and not pay much attention to their actual ideals, if only because the racism in Windhelm is much more overt. Yes, everyone is the hero in their own story, but this character is a hero to the Thalmor.

     

  • Member
    February 12, 2018
    Hmm, interesting, never heard that bit from Ondelomar. Looks like he'd get along well with the Ayleids....minus the Daedra worship
  • Member
    February 13, 2018

    Monica21 said:

    Title edited, and thank you for pointing me to that! Apologies for not noticing it sooner. 

    No worries, Monica. Not gonna lie, I forgot about stuff like this for weeks after it was introduced, and I was one of the people who introduced it...

    Regarding my character, I don't actually know if she knows about the towers. She's very much a true believer in that she does believe in the superiority of the Mer and she does not believe Talos should be worshipped. Her goal is more in the black ops realm in that she is in Skyrim to undermine the Empire, and she'll do that by siding with the Stormcloaks. She's essentially a ghost, trained by the Thalmor to be an agent for the Empire's destruction. Her orders don't really exist as such. It's the faith that the Thalmor have place in her, and knowing that the Emperor is killed by an Altmer will be proof that she is doing her job. And all that said, I think if she did know about the towers, she would throw herself into seeing them fall.

    Sounds like she'd stick to the plan to me then. Alduin is the wildest of wild cards, and although the Thalmor may be fans of high-risk, high-reward situations it's not a decision she can make. I'd keep going with the plan for now, but of course if you decide you fancy it in the future you can always just say you've got an order from the higher ups to make Alduin your weapon. Or maybe she finds orders on Ancano that he has to do it - would she follow through on the instruction even if they aren't hers, or does her obedience override her zealoutry? Ooh crossroads! How I love them, especially when you make them.

    And just for kicks, I checked out Ondolemar's dialogue to see what a Thalmor leader might be willing to say (well, a leader in Markarth). His dialogue is mostly about religion and Elven superiority:

    "We intend to prove the superiority of Mer over Man, one century as a time."

    "It's my mission to root out all Talos worship in this city."

    "There is peace now, and that peace will continue for as long as it suits our needs. But make no mistake, this is not a peace forged out of necessity between rival nations of equal strength. It is more like the calm between storms, and the next storm I think, will be far deadlier than the last."

    But then there's this bit which leads me to believe he does know more. It seems to point less towards destruction and more toward the Elves conquering Tamriel: 

    "Enjoy this while you can. Soon, you will all be slaves."

    Interesting, this guy seems to get his kicks by 'showing off' his superiority, looks like he went a little bit off the official message with the last one though! I'd be interested to see if you could use that - is Ondy more about his mission or his apparent vendetta against all things without pointy ears? Would you help him or report him if he went off on his own?

    Plus Ondolemar's even more of a dick than I remember, which I didn't think was possible.

  • Member
    February 14, 2018

    This is a fascinating topic, Monica, so I sort of want to share a few thoughts. I'm not sure where you're at with it, but here's how I would likely go about it.

    The Dragonborn as presented in Skyrim is very culturally specific, by which I mean to say that the themes, myths, and legends are all very much of a Nordic perspective. Which makes sense and why it is a struggle.

    However, we do know there were Cyrodiilic-centred Dragonborns. Saint Alessia doesn't resemble a Nordic ideal all that much, rather she is very much a symbol of a very Imperial cultural view. Hers was different - I mean, the same blessing and still a Dragonborn, but there was no need to kill dragons because that isn't part of Cyrodiil's song. Her role, and all subsequent DB's role, was to sit on the throne and wear that Amulet of Kings in order to keep Oblivion at bay. Thematically similar to the Nords as in a cultural threat which only one person can end, but implemented in a very different way.

    In addition, we also know the Akaviri came to Tamriel in search of a Dragonborn, finding as they did Reman. It's safe to assume they had their own perspectives and beliefs, a different cultural flavour than either the Nord or Cyrodiilic Dragonborn.

    So, from that, we can glean that each culture had their own version of this Akatosh-blessing. We could say that the Mane might be the Khajiiti version, or we could think of the Silvenar and Green Lady as being the Bosmeri version. That's a different topic, but the point stands: Different cultures had their interpretations.

    Auriel, Auri-el, and Akatosh are essentially cultural aspects of the same deity. We see in the Forgotten Vale what a stern and unforgiving aspect Auriel was for the Snow Elves - he turned his back on Arch-Curate Vyrthur just because his pure blood got spoiled (granted we don't know the circumstances, but still!) So, my imagination runs with that. An Altmeri Dragonborn, sympathising with the Aldmeri Dominion, would maybe see himself as a the absolute epitome of an Old Mary ideal.

    That ideal would likely be to follow in Auriel's footsteps and "ascend in full view of his followers." That's their path to heaven, possibly also known as Dracochrysalis. A complicated topic, but also with a massive clue in the name: Transform into a dragon, in this case, The Dragon Auriel. The PC may even see themselves as undergoing this transformation, and as they have Auriel's blessing, already may well be using His bow and Shield... they'd be justified in thinking they are Auriel. Or an aspect of Him.

    The Time Dragon, no matter what his name, is Time. Dragons are like shards of time, "biological time machines" Kurt Kuhlmann described them as. So, for my theoretical character, he sees himself as being Auriel Incarnate, or his avatar. He would see Alduin as a threat because Alduin will end the world too early and before he can show everyone how it's done, how to ascend to heaven. Vivec, much? :D

    Arngeir already tells us we have a licence to go nuts with this gift, and Alduin is a threat to the Altmeri ideal. Sure the Thalmor (may) want to end the world, but only on their terms. I think Delphine or Esbern say that at some point too. So yeah, that's pretty much how I'd roll :) He might only learn this stuff during the course of the adventure, but eventually it would click into place.

  • Member
    February 16, 2018

    Paws said:

    So, from that, we can glean that each culture had their own version of this Akatosh-blessing. We could say that the Mane might be the Khajiiti version, or we could think of the Silvenar and Green Lady as being the Bosmeri version. That's a different topic, but the point stands: Different cultures had their interpretations.

    Blummin' 'eck Phil, I think you just blew my mind. It completly makes sense, but it's still crazy to think about. Sometimes I forget how cray cray ES lore is. And excellent points on how this would apply to Moncia's character as well.

  • Member
    February 16, 2018
    Ha, well truthfully in the case of the Silvenar and Green Lady, it was a passing thought just to help make the point :D There are likely as many things contradicting that assertion as there are to support the theory. When playing through ESO, though, there were many things that were thematically similar to the role of a Dragonborn. It just sort of made sense on an intuitive level. They don't really have dragons, the Bosmer. Just one or two. But they have lots of green things, so being "Greenborn" made sense as being their cultural version, or shared root, of the Dragonborn plant.
  • Member
    February 17, 2018

    Paws said:

    We see in the Forgotten Vale what a stern and unforgiving aspect Auriel was for the Snow Elves - he turned his back on Arch-Curate Vyrthur just because his pure blood got spoiled (granted we don't know the circumstances, but still!) So, my imagination runs with that. An Altmeri Dragonborn, sympathising with the Aldmeri Dominion, would maybe see himself as a the absolute epitome of an Old Mary ideal.

    Ah! You've just given me the motivation for joining the Dawnguard! Thank you!

     

  • Member
    February 17, 2018
    Cool, am glad that helped some :)
  • February 19, 2018

    Hi, Monica. I really like the way your Thalmor is developing. I think it is a great way to visit some of the quests.

    As far as the Dragonborn bit of her goes, I wouldn't worry if it fitted her beliefs or not. (For your world view, it is nice to have it tidy in your mind.)

    As I see it, for her though, it is just something that happens to her, and she sees and hears it with a Thalmors perception. And she will act and react based on her understanding and 'theology'.  (My PC at the moment sees Alduin as a sign and a gift giver)

    As far as the average Thalmor goes, I see it as the natural home for young patriotic mers, not necessarily those that are concerned with returning to Aetherius It is a war that started at the beginning of the ages, after all, and...

     

    "Everything culminated in a secret, swift attack by the Imperial which destroyed the Aldmeri Dominion overnight. Despite it being a time of peace, with a notably shrewd but diplomatic Emperor, the Divine weapon Numidium was unleashed on the Dominion's political capitol of Alinor (Arcturian Heresy, On Morrowind, Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd Edition). Extra-canonical material from one of the lead writers at the time of Morrowind says that Alinor fell in an hour to Numidium, not a surprise, the same machine destroyed more than 50% of the population of High Rock in 2 days and ruined the Illiac basin, dissolving 40 of the 44 independent kingdoms during the Warp in the West incident of 3E 417.

    The most stable government in Tamriel fell in a day, Tiber Septim called a close to the second era in 2E 896 and forcefully integrated the Summerset Isles into the Empire (Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd Edition)."

    https://tamrielvault.com/groups/topic/view/group_id/1/topic_id/4495

    I feel, reading this account of the History of the High Elves, that outlawing Talos is more than just a political ploy, but also a cleansing of an abomination from the  temples of the Eight.