Skyrim Tips and Tricks » Discussions

How 'Bleeding Damage' works in Skyrim

• James

  

  Member
   

  November 5, 2013

  Over the past few days I've been messing around with a number of game elements for something I'll be posting at a later date.  During this time I came up with a somewhat comprehensive chart of how bleeding damage works which I figured might be of some interest to others here.  There are a few sources of information that people often cite and refer to but at best they are incomplete, while many are outright incorrect.  A brief gander at the UESP article on one-handed weapons has this wonderfully specific and detailed note:

  Bleeding damage seems to be a fixed amount over 3-7 seconds depending only on the weapon material, ranging from 3 total damage with rank 1 of this perk and and iron weapon, to 18 with rank 3 of this perk and a Daedric weapon. Multiple bleeding effects stack (possibly only from different material weapons)

  This information is not false but it's not very useful either.  Here are the notes I've collected the last few days.  The format will be the material type of the weapon followed by four bullet points.  To find the total damage with including bleeding just add whatever damage your weapon does (including smithing upgrades, etc) then add the corresponding amount of bleed damage.  If your iron waraxe does 120 damage it will only ever do +5 additional bleeding damage with all three ranks. 

  There are a few *quirks* found within this discussion, for stat junkies this will be worthwhile to read.  If nothing else I hope this can serve as reference material that can finally answer the question of what exactly bleeding damage is.  This won't be anything game changing, it's more of something interesting.

  1. Bleeding damage is resisted by nothing in the game (some enemies immune)
  2. Bleeding damage is affected by the difficulty slider
  3. Each progressive rank will replace the previous one instead of adding to it
  4. Bleeding damage for One-Handed and Two-Handed is exactly the same, depending on the material
  5. The length of the bleeding time is based on material and is the same for all ranks
  6. An unlimited number of 'Bleed timers' can be stacked.  The belief that only one per material type is allowed is completely false.  If the enemy can survive 100 attacks, you can stack 100 bleeds.
  7. Bleed damage ignores all armour and can be applied through blocking.

  *NOTE: All numbers presented are based on ADEPT difficulty

  IRON: (3 second bleeding time)

  • 8 (Base Damage)
  • 3 (Hack & Slash Rank #1)(Extra damage)
  • 4 (Hack & Slash Rank #2)(Extra damage)
  • 5 (Hack & Slash Rank #3)(Extra damage)

  STEEL: (3 second bleeding time)

  • 9
  • 3
  • 5.1
  • 6.9

  DWARVEN: (4 second bleeding time)

  • 11
  • 4.8
  • 7
  • 8

  ORCISH: (4 second bleeding time)(Bugged)

  • 10
  • 4
  • 6
  • 16

  ELVEN: (3.5 second bleeding time)(Bugged)

  • 12
  • -None-
  • 8
  • 10

  GLASS: (3.5 second bleeding time)

  • 13
  • 8
  • 10
  • 12

  EBONY: (4.5 second bleeding time)

  • 15
  • 10
  • 12.5
  • 15

  DAEDRIC: (6 second bleeding time)

  • 15
  • 12
  • 15
  • 18

  DRAGONBONE: (Bugged)

  • 16
  • -None-
  • -None-
  • -None-

  Some of the above bleeding lengths are not completely accurate however they are only off by a trivial amount so I rounded them to make it easier to think about.  A few obvious examples should jump off the page, firstly Dragonbone weapons (Waraxe and Battleaxe) do not gain anything from the bleeding perks.  The associated tag that would include them was left off (probably as an oversight since they were added as a bit of an afterthought for Dawnguard).  The other missing one is Rank #1 for Elven waraxes, the other ranks work but this one is missing and the twohanded battleaxe has rank #1 working fine...go figure. 

  The truely interesting weapon type is Orcish.  Rank 1&2 are very pedestrian but Rank #3 is completely overpowered.  This isn't the case of missing data or a messed up decimal place, this number was put there for reasons one can only guess at (both 1hand and 2hand).  In the case of Orcish waraxe the rank 3 bleeding basically doubles the base damage which is fairly decent.  Once again, bleed damage is independant of damage modifiers (smithing, enchanting) so if you are the sort of player that uses a weapon that deals 200+ damage then bleeding will be fairly worthless.  If you are the type that plays on lower difficulty and/or only uses basic weapons then bleed damage is nothing trivial and you should take the perks without flinching (unless you use the scrub dragonbone weapons, they're all rubbish).  I think that covers everything for now, I'll add in anything I have forgotten tomorrow. Please don't link me to any videos or sites with this information, Most of them are either outdated or were never correct.  Feel free to add anything you wish in the comments, perhaps I've missed something or didn't even think of it.  For anyone wondering about the 'Targe of the Blooded' that will be for another discussion (the description of it's enchantment is correct, 15 damage over 5 seconds).

  Now if only someone were to make a similar discussion dissecting everything there is to know about bashing damage...

  ...That was, perhaps, a not too subtle hint

  

  P.S.

  This is in loving memory of Alvor the Riverwood blacksmith.  Over the course of 2 days of me beating the snot out of Faendal in his home, Alvor has sacrificed his life no less than 50 times to defend the honour of his loyal employee.  No Faendal's were killed in the making of this discussion.

  P.P.S.

  For Sale:  1 pair of slightly used blacksmith's clothes, may contain 'rust' stains.  If interested please contact James: C/O Faendal, Riverwood.

  Over the past few days I've been messing around with a number of game elements for something I'll be posting at a later date.  During this time I came up with a somewhat comprehensive chart of how bleeding damage works which I figured might be of some interest to others here.  There are a few sources of information that people often cite and refer to but at best they are incomplete, while many are outright incorrect.  A brief gander at the UESP article on one-handed weapons has this wonderfully specific and detailed note:

  Bleeding damage seems to be a fixed amount over 3-7 seconds depending only on the weapon material, ranging from 3 total damage with rank 1 of this perk and and iron weapon, to 18 with rank 3 of this perk and a Daedric weapon. Multiple bleeding effects stack (possibly only from different material weapons)

  This information is not false but it's not very useful either.  Here are the notes I've collected the last few days.  The format will be the material type of the weapon followed by four bullet points.  To find the total damage with including bleeding just add whatever damage your weapon does (including smithing upgrades, etc) then add the corresponding amount of bleed damage.  If your iron waraxe does 120 damage it will only ever do +5 additional bleeding damage with all three ranks. 

  There are a few *quirks* found within this discussion, for stat junkies this will be worthwhile to read.  If nothing else I hope this can serve as reference material that can finally answer the question of what exactly bleeding damage is.  This won't be anything game changing, it's more of something interesting.

  1. Bleeding damage is resisted by nothing in the game (some enemies immune)
  2. Bleeding damage is affected by the difficulty slider
  3. Each progressive rank will replace the previous one instead of adding to it
  4. Bleeding damage for One-Handed and Two-Handed is exactly the same, depending on the material
  5. The length of the bleeding time is based on material and is the same for all ranks
  6. An unlimited number of 'Bleed timers' can be stacked.  The belief that only one per material type is allowed is completely false.  If the enemy can survive 100 attacks, you can stack 100 bleeds.
  7. Bleed damage ignores all armour and can be applied through blocking.

  *NOTE: All numbers presented are based on ADEPT difficulty

  IRON: (3 second bleeding time)

  • 8 (Base Damage)
  • 3 (Hack & Slash Rank #1)(Extra damage)
  • 4 (Hack & Slash Rank #2)(Extra damage)
  • 5 (Hack & Slash Rank #3)(Extra damage)

  STEEL: (3 second bleeding time)

  • 9
  • 3
  • 5.1
  • 6.9

  DWARVEN: (4 second bleeding time)

  • 11
  • 4.8
  • 7
  • 8

  ORCISH: (4 second bleeding time)(Bugged)

  • 10
  • 4
  • 6
  • 16

  ELVEN: (3.5 second bleeding time)(Bugged)

  • 12
  • -None-
  • 8
  • 10

  GLASS: (3.5 second bleeding time)

  • 13
  • 8
  • 10
  • 12

  EBONY: (4.5 second bleeding time)

  • 15
  • 10
  • 12.5
  • 15

  DAEDRIC: (6 second bleeding time)

  • 15
  • 12
  • 15
  • 18

  DRAGONBONE: (Bugged)

  • 16
  • -None-
  • -None-
  • -None-

  Some of the above bleeding lengths are not completely accurate however they are only off by a trivial amount so I rounded them to make it easier to think about.  A few obvious examples should jump off the page, firstly Dragonbone weapons (Waraxe and Battleaxe) do not gain anything from the bleeding perks.  The associated tag that would include them was left off (probably as an oversight since they were added as a bit of an afterthought for Dawnguard).  The other missing one is Rank #1 for Elven waraxes, the other ranks work but this one is missing and the twohanded battleaxe has rank #1 working fine...go figure. 

  The truely interesting weapon type is Orcish.  Rank 1&2 are very pedestrian but Rank #3 is completely overpowered.  This isn't the case of missing data or a messed up decimal place, this number was put there for reasons one can only guess at (both 1hand and 2hand).  In the case of Orcish waraxe the rank 3 bleeding basically doubles the base damage which is fairly decent.  Once again, bleed damage is independant of damage modifiers (smithing, enchanting) so if you are the sort of player that uses a weapon that deals 200+ damage then bleeding will be fairly worthless.  If you are the type that plays on lower difficulty and/or only uses basic weapons then bleed damage is nothing trivial and you should take the perks without flinching (unless you use the scrub dragonbone weapons, they're all rubbish).  I think that covers everything for now, I'll add in anything I have forgotten tomorrow. Please don't link me to any videos or sites with this information, Most of them are either outdated or were never correct.  Feel free to add anything you wish in the comments, perhaps I've missed something or didn't even think of it.  For anyone wondering about the 'Targe of the Blooded' that will be for another discussion (the description of it's enchantment is correct, 15 damage over 5 seconds).

  Now if only someone were to make a similar discussion dissecting everything there is to know about bashing damage...

  ...That was, perhaps, a not too subtle hint

  

  P.S.

  This is in loving memory of Alvor the Riverwood blacksmith.  Over the course of 2 days of me beating the snot out of Faendal in his home, Alvor has sacrificed his life no less than 50 times to defend the honour of his loyal employee.  No Faendal's were killed in the making of this discussion.

  P.P.S.

  For Sale:  1 pair of slightly used blacksmith's clothes, may contain 'rust' stains.  If interested please contact James: C/O Faendal, Riverwood.

• Teccam

  

  Member
   

  November 5, 2013

  Another great write-up, James. Wonderful work!

  I *think* that Nik may have done some testing with bleeding damage in one of his old gameplay mechanics threads. I'll see if I can dig anything up. May be useful for comparison/reconciliation. For the record, I know he did some testing on the bash damage, and found some good info. I'll try to dig that up as well.

  AFAIK you're the first person to find that anomaly with the Orcish weaponry at rank 3, which is a pretty interesting discovery. Also looking forward to your info on the Targe. That's one of my favorite items in the game, and I've been wanting to incorporate it into a build for ages. Speaking of, at the rate you've been going, someone will be able to put together a really strong build just from using the data you've uncovered. (Maybe that person will be you!)

  Couple of questions for you, if you get a chance to test:

  1. What about Dragonborn weapons? Nordic/Stalhrim?

  2. I know you love Marked for Death. I don't suppose that factors into bleeding damage at all? i.e., after amassing a -500 AR, would the bleed damage still be 16 total for Orcish weapons at rank 3? Or would it be amplified by the lower AR?

  Another great write-up, James. Wonderful work!

  I *think* that Nik may have done some testing with bleeding damage in one of his old gameplay mechanics threads. I'll see if I can dig anything up. May be useful for comparison/reconciliation. For the record, I know he did some testing on the bash damage, and found some good info. I'll try to dig that up as well.

  AFAIK you're the first person to find that anomaly with the Orcish weaponry at rank 3, which is a pretty interesting discovery. Also looking forward to your info on the Targe. That's one of my favorite items in the game, and I've been wanting to incorporate it into a build for ages. Speaking of, at the rate you've been going, someone will be able to put together a really strong build just from using the data you've uncovered. (Maybe that person will be you!)

  Couple of questions for you, if you get a chance to test:

  1. What about Dragonborn weapons? Nordic/Stalhrim?

  2. I know you love Marked for Death. I don't suppose that factors into bleeding damage at all? i.e., after amassing a -500 AR, would the bleed damage still be 16 total for Orcish weapons at rank 3? Or would it be amplified by the lower AR?

• James

  

  Member
   

  November 5, 2013

  A keen eye you have.

  1.) I didn't get around to testing the dragonborn weapons which is something I'll do tomorrow if time permits.  Until proven otherwise it's good enough to assume they are comparable.  Sad to admit, I completely forgot about these weapons.

  2.) Bleeding damage is actually a sort of magic effect (not a spell).  It is due to this that it is able to completely ignore armour and blocking has no mitigation on it.  It is also because of this that 'Marked' has no effect.  Was one of the first things I tried.

  All in all I think the single most interesting thing I learned was that bleeding damage ignored armour and blocking.  I had Faendal geared up in Legendary Daedric and he blocked almost all of my damage, but the bleeding stacked on him enough that he died a lot faster than I expected.  It's obvious to me now, but when he started dying with an effective damage mitigation of ~90% I was kind of shocked.  Gives me a few ideas about using Elemental fury and basic axes to just bleed the hell out of armoured enemies.

  As for bashing, you're going to love one of my next articles I think.  All that needs to be said is I was running around 1-shotting a lot of enemies using a basic steel shield and a few *techniques*

  There's a particular tool in this game that everyone knows about yet, from what I've found, nobody is using properly.  I'm hoping to change that soon.

  A keen eye you have.

  1.) I didn't get around to testing the dragonborn weapons which is something I'll do tomorrow if time permits.  Until proven otherwise it's good enough to assume they are comparable.  Sad to admit, I completely forgot about these weapons.

  2.) Bleeding damage is actually a sort of magic effect (not a spell).  It is due to this that it is able to completely ignore armour and blocking has no mitigation on it.  It is also because of this that 'Marked' has no effect.  Was one of the first things I tried.

  All in all I think the single most interesting thing I learned was that bleeding damage ignored armour and blocking.  I had Faendal geared up in Legendary Daedric and he blocked almost all of my damage, but the bleeding stacked on him enough that he died a lot faster than I expected.  It's obvious to me now, but when he started dying with an effective damage mitigation of ~90% I was kind of shocked.  Gives me a few ideas about using Elemental fury and basic axes to just bleed the hell out of armoured enemies.

  As for bashing, you're going to love one of my next articles I think.  All that needs to be said is I was running around 1-shotting a lot of enemies using a basic steel shield and a few *techniques*

  There's a particular tool in this game that everyone knows about yet, from what I've found, nobody is using properly.  I'm hoping to change that soon.

• Teccam

  

  Member
   

  November 5, 2013

  Looking forward to that bashing article, mate. I had the same though wrt. Elemental Fury. I feel like there may be other possibilities too, like maybe fear, or ethereal, or slow time to stack bleeding faster. Elemental Fury + dual orcish war axes + 2/2 Dual Flurry could drop stack some serious damage really quickly. Maybe Paralyze to open. And throw on a DOT poison and/or Fire Damage enchant on those axes, they'd make short work of pretty much anything on any difficulty.

  Also, FWIW, I found that thread by Nik. He has a bit of data on bashing, but it's not exceptionally in-depth, and he has nothing on bleeding. May be worth a quick read though [click me]. Sounds like your guide will have a fair bit of new info compared to Nik's. I'm looking forward to it!

  Also, you may want to add the Dawnguard war axe and Rune Axe to your testing if/when you test the Dragonborn axes. Not sure if they're treated separately from standard steel.... Oh, and Falmer war axes may be worth testing too if you get a chance.

  Looking forward to that bashing article, mate. I had the same though wrt. Elemental Fury. I feel like there may be other possibilities too, like maybe fear, or ethereal, or slow time to stack bleeding faster. Elemental Fury + dual orcish war axes + 2/2 Dual Flurry could drop stack some serious damage really quickly. Maybe Paralyze to open. And throw on a DOT poison and/or Fire Damage enchant on those axes, they'd make short work of pretty much anything on any difficulty.

  Also, FWIW, I found that thread by Nik. He has a bit of data on bashing, but it's not exceptionally in-depth, and he has nothing on bleeding. May be worth a quick read though [click me]. Sounds like your guide will have a fair bit of new info compared to Nik's. I'm looking forward to it!

  Also, you may want to add the Dawnguard war axe and Rune Axe to your testing if/when you test the Dragonborn axes. Not sure if they're treated separately from standard steel.... Oh, and Falmer war axes may be worth testing too if you get a chance.

• James

  

  Member
   

  November 5, 2013

  I didn't bother with things like Falmer since I doubt anyone ever uses them (they can't be double tempered) but I'll definetly look at the Dawnguard axe.

  Nik's numbers are fairly accurate but not the most simplified way of explaining bashing.  The easiest way to state bash damage is that at 100 skill:

  -all shields do 12.5% of their base armor in damage

  -all weapons do 25% of their base damage rating

  There are some exceptions but that's the gist of it.

  I didn't bother with things like Falmer since I doubt anyone ever uses them (they can't be double tempered) but I'll definetly look at the Dawnguard axe.

  Nik's numbers are fairly accurate but not the most simplified way of explaining bashing.  The easiest way to state bash damage is that at 100 skill:

  -all shields do 12.5% of their base armor in damage

  -all weapons do 25% of their base damage rating

  There are some exceptions but that's the gist of it.

• Sangreal

  

  Member
   

  November 6, 2013

  I'm getting all gigglish from all of this new info excitement!

  I had a feeling you would be adding info about the Targe since I started an aspiring unarmed char as well following in your footsteps and I could not find it very viable without a shield. Alas I'm no where near the level to call the character ready, but this is based on my past experiences and theories.

  Since you're a PC player I don't suppose you have any combat mods? Also while testing these, did you have the unofficial patches on? Haven't read the whole patch log but don't suppose they have touched any bleeding factors. Was a nice surprise to find out later that they fixed the necromage 'bug'.

  Excellent writing as usual.

  "Alvor has sacrificed his life no less than 50 times" no less is expected from any man

  I'm getting all gigglish from all of this new info excitement!

  I had a feeling you would be adding info about the Targe since I started an aspiring unarmed char as well following in your footsteps and I could not find it very viable without a shield. Alas I'm no where near the level to call the character ready, but this is based on my past experiences and theories.

  Since you're a PC player I don't suppose you have any combat mods? Also while testing these, did you have the unofficial patches on? Haven't read the whole patch log but don't suppose they have touched any bleeding factors. Was a nice surprise to find out later that they fixed the necromage 'bug'.

  Excellent writing as usual.

  "Alvor has sacrificed his life no less than 50 times" no less is expected from any man

• Vazgen

  

  Member
   

  November 6, 2013

  Ben's Cursed Prophet uses them :P

  Ben's Cursed Prophet uses them :P
• James

  

  Member
   

  November 6, 2013

  I started an aspiring unarmed char as well following in your footsteps and I could not find it very viable without a shield

  Really?  Not only has my monk never used a shield (or block skill) he doesn't wear any armour!  Lydia helped for the early levels, after I got alteration up I dropped all followers and haven't had any issues.

  I don't suppose you have any combat mods? Also while testing these, did you have the unofficial patches on?

  I make most of my own mods so I know exactly what they are making changes to (many popular mods make a lot of unintended changes) but when I do tests I have no mods active.  I never use the unofficial patches because the scope of them is far too grand and they make so many changes to things I never use that most of it is unnecessary, I'd rather specifically target something that needs it rather than sweeping changes.

  I'm getting all gigglish from all of this new info excitement!

  Wait until I talk about bash damage!

  I started an aspiring unarmed char as well following in your footsteps and I could not find it very viable without a shield

  Really?  Not only has my monk never used a shield (or block skill) he doesn't wear any armour!  Lydia helped for the early levels, after I got alteration up I dropped all followers and haven't had any issues.

  I don't suppose you have any combat mods? Also while testing these, did you have the unofficial patches on?

  I make most of my own mods so I know exactly what they are making changes to (many popular mods make a lot of unintended changes) but when I do tests I have no mods active.  I never use the unofficial patches because the scope of them is far too grand and they make so many changes to things I never use that most of it is unnecessary, I'd rather specifically target something that needs it rather than sweeping changes.

  I'm getting all gigglish from all of this new info excitement!

  Wait until I talk about bash damage!

• Sangreal

  

  Member
   

  November 6, 2013

  Almost ripped my self a new one when I leveled my mage's alteration to 100 and restoration to 70 before turning into vampirism, only to find out the Unofficial mod has 'fixed the bug'.

  I guess I see those patches as an authority so I play along and accept that it's an unintended feature instead of reversing it with another mod.

  Well anyway, I was under the impression that your monk build used the shield bash/charge in melee range, but now that I think of it no monk in the history of monkism has ever used a shield, duh. I was whining cos I got my ass handed in a package earlier with my lvl 7 unarmed monk and using a shield so i could block made it so much easier.

  Almost ripped my self a new one when I leveled my mage's alteration to 100 and restoration to 70 before turning into vampirism, only to find out the Unofficial mod has 'fixed the bug'.

  I guess I see those patches as an authority so I play along and accept that it's an unintended feature instead of reversing it with another mod.

  Well anyway, I was under the impression that your monk build used the shield bash/charge in melee range, but now that I think of it no monk in the history of monkism has ever used a shield, duh. I was whining cos I got my ass handed in a package earlier with my lvl 7 unarmed monk and using a shield so i could block made it so much easier.

• James

  

  Member
   

  November 7, 2013

  He uses strict Hand-to-Hand combat.  I began the character using a lot of Archery but very early on I realized it was actually of no value to the character as I was only using it as a poison delivery system, and I found I didn't need to use poisons.

  It's a bit dicey at he start because Alteration flesh spells are limited but once it gets going, armour and shields are useless.

  He uses strict Hand-to-Hand combat.  I began the character using a lot of Archery but very early on I realized it was actually of no value to the character as I was only using it as a poison delivery system, and I found I didn't need to use poisons.

  It's a bit dicey at he start because Alteration flesh spells are limited but once it gets going, armour and shields are useless.