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• SpookyBorn2021

  

  • 1467 posts
   

  March 19, 2015 9:13 PM EDT

  Or the other two or three exits there are (like the one that leads under the arch). 

• Tim

  

  • 92 posts
   

  March 19, 2015 10:04 PM EDT

  I always kinda felt bad for Roggvir, he just kinda got left out to dry by Ulfric. What I don't get is why didn't he escape with Ulfric? There was no reason for him to stay if he had just aided the dude that killed the High King....

• Shadow

  

  • 33 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 1:56 AM EDT

  I would say I dontnow ow enough to a sweeter but since i love the free guaranteed amulet of talos... Die traitorous Scum!
• Jéferson

  

  • 41 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:05 PM EDT

  My theory?

  Ulfric went to Solitude, walked into the Blue Palace, challanged the king to a duel, killed the king in said duel, then the whole court just stood there like "wtf do we do now?"

  So Ulfric walked out of the city and back to Windhelm, and the court felt the need to do something because just going to the towns folk and saying "Hi guys, our king just died during a duel against Ulfric Stormcloak" didn't quite cut it, so they came with that whole "shouted the king to pieces" BS. 

  The problem is: they needed a scape goat, someone responsible for allowing Ulfric to scape the city. And poor Rogvir just happend to be the perfect one...

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:08 PM EDT

  If Roggvir was a scapegoat, then don't you think he would've pointed this out before being executed? Wouldn't his family have something to say about it?

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:11 PM EDT

  And again, Ulfric himself says he shouted the king down before stabbing him.

• Golden Fool

  

  • 627 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:15 PM EDT

  And if he was a scapegoat, what makes you think the imperials would believe anything he said, since he's been made to look guilty?

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:20 PM EDT

  I'm not saying to protest to the Imperials, you'd just think that he'd at least have something to say about it before he gets killed, or that his family would, or that at least one person among the many NPCs in Skyrim would say that he was made a scapegoat if that were actually true.

• Golden Fool

  

  • 627 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:24 PM EDT

  Who says he didn't while he was held captive waiting for his execution? And why noone voices this opinion, well as an imperial citizen if they were to say anything, it could be seen as them supporting Ulfric, which would cause them to fear some form of retribution, and from the stormcloaks point of view he's just another imperial dog. Also is there anyone outside of Solitude that even mentions him?

• Golden Fool

  

  • 627 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:31 PM EDT

  And again if people are going to believe that it's all his fault just because those in power say it is, why would they believe the supposedly guilty man?

  And if those in power are likely to do something like that then who would be willing to step up and protest to it when it would be risking similar treatment?

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:37 PM EDT

  Roggvir's sister flat out tells you that he opened the gate, and defends his actions as well. So she's clearly not afraid of being seen as an Ulfric supporter, so why would she lie about her brother's death?

• Golden Fool

  

  • 627 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:39 PM EDT

  How much would you believe the family of a convicted felon concerning their innocence?

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:45 PM EDT

  The point is not about whether or not anyone believes it. The point is that not a single person in the entirety of Skyrim says that he's a scapegoat.

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:46 PM EDT

  Alright, I'm getting a bit confused. So Roggvir's sister is lying, saying that he opened the gate to let Ulfric out of Solitude when he actually never did that. However she defends her brother's nonexistent actions. Is that what you're saying?

• Golden Fool

  

  • 627 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:47 PM EDT

  You still haven't answered my question about whether there is only one outside of Solitude who mentions him.

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:53 PM EDT

  To answer your question, I'm not sure. Now then, just so I'm perfectly clear on the point you're trying to argue, are you saying that not only was Roggvir made a scapegoat, but that there was also a government cover-up done by the court of Solitude and possibly the Empire as well that prevents every single person in Solitude from talking about it?

• Golden Fool

  

  • 627 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:55 PM EDT

  Those outside of Solitude are only going to know about it via rumors, so they're not going to have a reliable source of info to base that on (and yes I know that the same can be said for us) and those of those in Solitude the vast majority if not all of them support the Empire so wouldn't they be inclined to believe anything that the Imperials and by extension those in the Blue Palace say.

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:58 PM EDT

  Greta doesn't support the Empire. At the very least, she doesn't support what Solitude did to her brother. But if your theory is true, then Greta is defending her brother's nonexistent actions for inexplicable reasons.

• Golden Fool

  

  • 627 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 9:59 PM EDT

  Since the tree has gone to far and I can't respond I'll do it here.

  I believe that the bit about those in Solitude was answered in the comment i made just after your's. And they're not really making him a scapegoat out of nowhere so they don't really have to cover it up.

  There putting him to the sword (or axe if you want to be picky) because he let Ulfric leave and by doing that they can shift the attention of the common folk away from themselves

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 10:03 PM EDT

  Wait, so now you're saying that Roggvir opened the gate? Also, if everyone in Solitude supports the Empire like you said, then there's no way that they'd let Ulfric simply walk away after killing the High King and starting the Stormcloak Rebellion.

• Golden Fool

  

  • 627 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 10:08 PM EDT

  I never said he didn't open the gate, I was just pointing out that even if they had made him a scapegoat (by shifting the blame onto him) then who would believe him. 

  While some of the guards may have known like those at the palace,why would the commoners have been told right that moment causing a panic?

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 10:17 PM EDT

  Obviously, few people would believe him. But if he was made a scapegoat, then why doesn't he say anything about it at his execution? Why doesn't Greta say it when she's defending her brother's actions.

  The commoners wouldn't have known right away what happened. But they certainly must've suspected something when they heard Ulfric use the Voice while he was dueling Torygg. But that's not the point. If Ulfric dueled Torygg in the Blue Palace, then there would've been numerous people that would've saw him kill Torygg. You're telling me that all of the Palace Guards plus everyone else who was watching decided to simply let Ulfric walk out of there?

• Golden Fool

  

  • 627 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 10:26 PM EDT

  Shock. The voice is a thing of legend, and they've just seen it used in killing their king (even if it was just pushing him over), they have no idea of what it can really do other than what the legends have told them, and we all know what those are like. Yes one or two may have stepped forward, but after seeing that all it would is Ulfric glancing in their direction to make all but the bravest or dumbest of people to have second thoughts about trying to stop him.

  As for your first point, yes that is a flaw in the scapegoat thing.

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 10:31 PM EDT

  Considering that the Nords are all about bravery, I'd imagine plenty of the guards would've stepped forth to challenge them.

• Golden Fool

  

  • 627 posts
   

  March 20, 2015 10:35 PM EDT

  But still, this was most likely have been the first time any one of them has seen the voice used, even if they stepped forward they're not going to know if he can rip them apart with a word, so if he happened to look in their direction even if it was just a glance they would start second guessing whether it would do any good or if it would just get them killed if they provoked him. They may value bravery but their not stupid.