The Story Corner » Discussions

Lore and Manipulation

• Accursed

  

  Member
   

  October 5, 2015

  Hello good people of TT!

  I thought that it might be good to have a quick discussion on TES Lore. More importantly, how we use it to create our stories. Often times, existing lore must be looked at so that we can create our own lore based upon it to help our plots along.

  To help this along, here are a few questions;

  Do you create your own lore based off of known lore?

  Can you give an example of this?

  To what extent is this acceptable? I.e., how much is too much in your opinion?

  Of course, you can also talk about anything relating to this.

  If you have lore questions, you can ask them here. If you have questions on how to tie it into your story, you can ask those here.

  Hello good people of TT!

  I thought that it might be good to have a quick discussion on TES Lore. More importantly, how we use it to create our stories. Often times, existing lore must be looked at so that we can create our own lore based upon it to help our plots along.

  To help this along, here are a few questions;

  Do you create your own lore based off of known lore?

  Can you give an example of this?

  To what extent is this acceptable? I.e., how much is too much in your opinion?

  Of course, you can also talk about anything relating to this.

  If you have lore questions, you can ask them here. If you have questions on how to tie it into your story, you can ask those here.

• Andrew Shepherd

  

  Member
   

  October 5, 2015

  I definitely create my own lore based on known lore - it's not so much the existing stories of TES but the concepts behind them that I find interesting. Of course the concepts are heavily borrowed off other fantasy/sci fi stories but its well done. I've always been fascinated in how magic is theoretically explained in terms of actual physics - what is actually possible?

  My story - Technonomicon (which I haven't written on in ages) deals with these concepts to some degree.

  I think its totally acceptable to mess with the lore. Each writer's take on it makes their work worth reading, rather than just reading about a writer's playthrough.

  I definitely create my own lore based on known lore - it's not so much the existing stories of TES but the concepts behind them that I find interesting. Of course the concepts are heavily borrowed off other fantasy/sci fi stories but its well done. I've always been fascinated in how magic is theoretically explained in terms of actual physics - what is actually possible?

  My story - Technonomicon (which I haven't written on in ages) deals with these concepts to some degree.

  I think its totally acceptable to mess with the lore. Each writer's take on it makes their work worth reading, rather than just reading about a writer's playthrough.

• The Long-Chapper

  

  Member
   

  October 6, 2015

  You need to write on him again. He was a cool character. 

  You need to write on him again. He was a cool character. 

• Andrew Shepherd

  

  Member
   

  October 6, 2015

  Yeah I've been thinking about Sylvano for a while now but his story is a bit complex. I'll give it another go soon. I'm really looking at the relationship between TES universe and the rest of the cosmos.

  Yeah I've been thinking about Sylvano for a while now but his story is a bit complex. I'll give it another go soon. I'm really looking at the relationship between TES universe and the rest of the cosmos.
• The Long-Chapper

  

  Member
   

  October 6, 2015

  Do you create your own lore based off of known lore?

  Is the sky blue? LOL, one of the points of Straag Rod for me was to write an account of Aelberon's time in Skyrim that explained a lot of the lore behind quests. Why even bother with the Companions Questline? What is the significance? To bring it beyond simple kill this or kill that, fetch quests, and Beast Form. To bring life and urgency to it and to flesh out the participants. In order to do that I have had to make my own lore on many occasions. 

  There is also the backstory of the character I've created. He's not a twenty-something. He's 243, which means he's got 243 years of backstory to fill. 

  Event lore and cultural lore is often scant and contradictory. I create my own lore to fill in the gaps. Mostly, it is to create the "why" of things. And to explain the "how does it look".

  Can you give an example of this?

  Where do I begin? I won't delve further into Aelberon's story than what I've presented here as I do not want to give away certain plot points. 

  1. Building Alinor - Vampire symposium chapters. I read the lore books on the subject and consulted articles on Summerset's capital. Based on the descriptions given, I then built the world, taking liberties with the flora and the amount of people. 

  2. Crystal-Like-Law - Rising Threat is a source for the Tower's final moments, but I expand on the lore, detailing the battle and who survived.

  3. Altmeris language - Has like a 100 word vocabulary. Really? for the Cultured People? My dog knows more words, so I combined the more extensive vocabulary in High Aldmeris into this language's vocabulary, eliminating older words in Aldmeris that had equivalent in Altmeris and then adapting Altmeris grammar. This gave me a functional language where a person could sound like they were not two. 

  4. Northern and Southern Altmer divide - Eugenics were rumored to be practiced in Summerset based on books and lore books suggest purges along the lines of race. With that information, and the limited knowledge available on the Southern Summerset cities, I create a distinct world South of Alinor city. More rustic, the bread basket of Summerset, where the raw materials and the soldiers come from. 

  5. Snow Elf and Ayleid migrations - There is evidence in the lore books that bands escaped their relative Human persecutors. Both Races were competent seafarers and the Southern Coast of Summerset is a port. The information is also so limited because we are dealing with end of Merethic and First Era dates that I can easily say that Ayleid and Snow Elf ships arrived at Dusk seeking refuge. This leads to population mixing, which then leads to number 4. They are similar enough that intermixing is feasible, yet different enough that you can see subtle changes in the Southern population over time or the emergence of throw backs which revert to Snow Elf or Ayleid coloring. 

  I could go on, but nah, I don't feel like it, I've given enough examples. There are a lot more in Straag Rod. 

  To what extent is this acceptable? I.e., how much is too much in your opinion?

  I think it's acceptable until people stop believing that it's plausible in that universe. The Elderscrolls universe is pretty broad, you can get away with a lot. I am more conservative than most and really work hard, if I incorporate my own lore, that it is as seamless as possible with Elderscrolls lore. I want when people read my stuff to not even bat an eyelash. I frequent the Lore section a bit with questions and I do a ton of my own reading. 

  Do you create your own lore based off of known lore?

  Is the sky blue? LOL, one of the points of Straag Rod for me was to write an account of Aelberon's time in Skyrim that explained a lot of the lore behind quests. Why even bother with the Companions Questline? What is the significance? To bring it beyond simple kill this or kill that, fetch quests, and Beast Form. To bring life and urgency to it and to flesh out the participants. In order to do that I have had to make my own lore on many occasions. 

  There is also the backstory of the character I've created. He's not a twenty-something. He's 243, which means he's got 243 years of backstory to fill. 

  Event lore and cultural lore is often scant and contradictory. I create my own lore to fill in the gaps. Mostly, it is to create the "why" of things. And to explain the "how does it look".

  Can you give an example of this?

  Where do I begin? I won't delve further into Aelberon's story than what I've presented here as I do not want to give away certain plot points. 

  1. Building Alinor - Vampire symposium chapters. I read the lore books on the subject and consulted articles on Summerset's capital. Based on the descriptions given, I then built the world, taking liberties with the flora and the amount of people. 

  2. Crystal-Like-Law - Rising Threat is a source for the Tower's final moments, but I expand on the lore, detailing the battle and who survived.

  3. Altmeris language - Has like a 100 word vocabulary. Really? for the Cultured People? My dog knows more words, so I combined the more extensive vocabulary in High Aldmeris into this language's vocabulary, eliminating older words in Aldmeris that had equivalent in Altmeris and then adapting Altmeris grammar. This gave me a functional language where a person could sound like they were not two. 

  4. Northern and Southern Altmer divide - Eugenics were rumored to be practiced in Summerset based on books and lore books suggest purges along the lines of race. With that information, and the limited knowledge available on the Southern Summerset cities, I create a distinct world South of Alinor city. More rustic, the bread basket of Summerset, where the raw materials and the soldiers come from. 

  5. Snow Elf and Ayleid migrations - There is evidence in the lore books that bands escaped their relative Human persecutors. Both Races were competent seafarers and the Southern Coast of Summerset is a port. The information is also so limited because we are dealing with end of Merethic and First Era dates that I can easily say that Ayleid and Snow Elf ships arrived at Dusk seeking refuge. This leads to population mixing, which then leads to number 4. They are similar enough that intermixing is feasible, yet different enough that you can see subtle changes in the Southern population over time or the emergence of throw backs which revert to Snow Elf or Ayleid coloring. 

  I could go on, but nah, I don't feel like it, I've given enough examples. There are a lot more in Straag Rod. 

  To what extent is this acceptable? I.e., how much is too much in your opinion?

  I think it's acceptable until people stop believing that it's plausible in that universe. The Elderscrolls universe is pretty broad, you can get away with a lot. I am more conservative than most and really work hard, if I incorporate my own lore, that it is as seamless as possible with Elderscrolls lore. I want when people read my stuff to not even bat an eyelash. I frequent the Lore section a bit with questions and I do a ton of my own reading. 

• Andrew Shepherd

  

  Member
   

  October 6, 2015

  I think Accursed started this discussion for you, Lissette. No one is better qualified to answer. Mind you, I did a small playthrough once playing a space marine in power armor with a T-800 terminator as a side kick whilst hunting down Predators vs Aliens. That was a little lore breaking but also a geeks paradise for a while.

  I think Accursed started this discussion for you, Lissette. No one is better qualified to answer. Mind you, I did a small playthrough once playing a space marine in power armor with a T-800 terminator as a side kick whilst hunting down Predators vs Aliens. That was a little lore breaking but also a geeks paradise for a while.
• The Long-Chapper

  

  Member
   

  October 6, 2015

  Thanks, Andrew. I could go on about lore for hours. It's a lot at times, dragon lore, shout lore, Altmeri lore, Cyrodiilic lore, the list goes on. Making everything make sense has been a huge challenge and a goal for me. Some questlines just don't make sense. 

  Thanks, Andrew. I could go on about lore for hours. It's a lot at times, dragon lore, shout lore, Altmeri lore, Cyrodiilic lore, the list goes on. Making everything make sense has been a huge challenge and a goal for me. Some questlines just don't make sense. 

• Rhoth

  

  Member
   

  October 6, 2015

  In my very admittedly brief blog posting career here I have been working on creating some "extra" lore for certain characters.  Most of those haven't come out yet, but they will in later chapters.

  I really can't give an example of this yet, but the first bit of my own lore will be upcoming in my next chapter and expands on lore from the UESP wiki.

  As to acceptable, I think it's perfectly acceptable to create your own lore.  If everyone only ever wrote within the bounds of canon lore then all the stories would be similar, and ultimately boring.

  In my very admittedly brief blog posting career here I have been working on creating some "extra" lore for certain characters.  Most of those haven't come out yet, but they will in later chapters.

  I really can't give an example of this yet, but the first bit of my own lore will be upcoming in my next chapter and expands on lore from the UESP wiki.

  As to acceptable, I think it's perfectly acceptable to create your own lore.  If everyone only ever wrote within the bounds of canon lore then all the stories would be similar, and ultimately boring.

• SpottedFawn

  

  Member
   

  October 6, 2015

  I really appreciate you starting this discussion, Accursed Gloom, I was just wondering how much of non-canon member-created lore would be acceptable to write about.  Though I haven't put anything in Tamriel Tales yet, I really enjoy the idea of building on what's already established in the TES universe. For my Wood Elf, Tavareth, I will be focusing on short stories that deal with his destiny as the Wilderking, which is from the ESO universe, but I will be doing my own interpretation of it.

  I also have another character in the works (who will probably be getting the 'epic saga' kind of story) who deals with a lot of Stormcloak and Ulfric related lore. Again, I would like to do my own spin on this. As much as I enjoy researching, sometimes the TES universe can be overwhelming, and sometimes it's just easier to come up with my own explanations for things. I would like for my lore to be 'reasonable', I don't want it to be glaringly obvious, I'd like to make it fit the world the canon-lore resides in, so I'll exercise restraint in some areas when it comes to fan made lore.

  I very much agree with Lissette. I will likely be less conservative in my approach to lore manipulation and non-canon lore, though; to me, it's never too much unless it stops being plausible to the reader, or it directly contradicts one of the major aspects of TES's world that even non lore-buffs like me would notice at the drop of a hat.

  I really appreciate you starting this discussion, Accursed Gloom, I was just wondering how much of non-canon member-created lore would be acceptable to write about.  Though I haven't put anything in Tamriel Tales yet, I really enjoy the idea of building on what's already established in the TES universe. For my Wood Elf, Tavareth, I will be focusing on short stories that deal with his destiny as the Wilderking, which is from the ESO universe, but I will be doing my own interpretation of it.

  I also have another character in the works (who will probably be getting the 'epic saga' kind of story) who deals with a lot of Stormcloak and Ulfric related lore. Again, I would like to do my own spin on this. As much as I enjoy researching, sometimes the TES universe can be overwhelming, and sometimes it's just easier to come up with my own explanations for things. I would like for my lore to be 'reasonable', I don't want it to be glaringly obvious, I'd like to make it fit the world the canon-lore resides in, so I'll exercise restraint in some areas when it comes to fan made lore.

  I very much agree with Lissette. I will likely be less conservative in my approach to lore manipulation and non-canon lore, though; to me, it's never too much unless it stops being plausible to the reader, or it directly contradicts one of the major aspects of TES's world that even non lore-buffs like me would notice at the drop of a hat.

• Accursed

  

  Member
   

  October 6, 2015

  I suppose I should answer this as well.
  Do I create my own Lore? To that I say; is Auri-El worshipped by Altmer?
  YES! Much of it is in chapters that I have yet to release. Much of it will come into play soon.
  One example that has yet to come but isn't a huge spoiler to my plot is the prophecy of the Son of Magnus. It is supposedly a very well known prophecy/legend of the Altmer and is very well known amongst the priests of any of the Altmeri pantheon's gods. Does it exist? No. I also mess around with the lore surrounding the Staff and Eye of Magnus.
  One example that has been released is my Altmer wedding. There is almost no lore on it, aside from the fact that most are arranged marriages and that they are very selective. Given this, I've had to make up the ceremony. This ended up being based off of Japenese wedding rituals, but still fit the lore as many aspects of Altmer cultures seems to be taken from ancient China and Japan.
  
  There are limits, though. Take Kirkbride. He is quite controversial, but I think he has taken things too far.
  A less controversial topic might be taking lore and modifying it so heavily that it becomes unrealistic for TES. For instance, the fact that Alduin is considered by some to just be the Nordic Akatosh. If one were to take this theory, then claim that the dragon that Martin becomes in Oblivion is actually Alduin, I'd say that is a bit of a stretch.

  I suppose I should answer this as well.
  Do I create my own Lore? To that I say; is Auri-El worshipped by Altmer?
  YES! Much of it is in chapters that I have yet to release. Much of it will come into play soon.
  One example that has yet to come but isn't a huge spoiler to my plot is the prophecy of the Son of Magnus. It is supposedly a very well known prophecy/legend of the Altmer and is very well known amongst the priests of any of the Altmeri pantheon's gods. Does it exist? No. I also mess around with the lore surrounding the Staff and Eye of Magnus.
  One example that has been released is my Altmer wedding. There is almost no lore on it, aside from the fact that most are arranged marriages and that they are very selective. Given this, I've had to make up the ceremony. This ended up being based off of Japenese wedding rituals, but still fit the lore as many aspects of Altmer cultures seems to be taken from ancient China and Japan.
  
  There are limits, though. Take Kirkbride. He is quite controversial, but I think he has taken things too far.
  A less controversial topic might be taking lore and modifying it so heavily that it becomes unrealistic for TES. For instance, the fact that Alduin is considered by some to just be the Nordic Akatosh. If one were to take this theory, then claim that the dragon that Martin becomes in Oblivion is actually Alduin, I'd say that is a bit of a stretch.