Forums » Fallout

• Mottyskills

  

  • 248 posts
   

  February 5, 2018 11:35 AM EST

  I know a lot of people were dissapointed in FO4's forced main story / voiced protagonist combination. This built in lmitation for roleplay certainly isn't ideal. I'm not going to argue otherwise. However, after taking a few months break from the game and then coming back in to build for the Arms & Artifacts Event, something dawned upon me.

  You can do almost anything in Fallout 4.

  What do I mean? 

  Surely someone will point out how the limited dialogue options stifle the ability to RP a truly evil character. Or how you are 'forced' into the MQ. But, here's the thing...if you want to figure out a way to play a specific combat style, you can do it. There's hardly any playstyle you can't recreate or work around if you put your mind to it. This is thanks to the hearty workshop options, MODs (don't @ me - mods are part of the deal these days so be thankful for them), and an absolutely huge sandbox to dig around in. 

  I bring this up as I put the finishing touches on a build I've had in mind for 2+ years.
  
  The problem: I needed A LOT of 5mm ammo for a hungry minigun that is the feature of the build.
  Solutions: So. Many. Options. Oh I can farm it using raider AI? Yes. I can literally build an ammo factory using the workshop? Yup. I can join a faction that has a NPC dealing them by the 1000s? Awesome. I can hunt down known minigun locations? Excellent! Is there a MOD for that? You betcha.

  This is the kind of flexibility you just don't find in most games. I can't say how many times I've wanted to build a character and found a way to make it work. I'm on 15 posted builds and still no where near out of ideas. I totally understand the push back from people who get easily hung up on roleplay. For me, being able to create almost unlimited playstyles keeps me coming back 2 and half years later. 

  That's my thesis. What do you say?

• Chris

  

  • 1441 posts
   

  February 5, 2018 12:46 PM EST

  Same, heck cut content adds even more to Nate and Nora's backstories. But yeah, I agree, I've even found out ways to make supernatural abilities work
• Noodles

  

  • 277 posts
   

  February 5, 2018 2:32 PM EST

  Compared to many other rpgs out there, Skyrim most important in this case, the Fallout 4 protagonists's backstories are the most limited. But when you get to experience all the "exotic" lands and quests in the game, from a haunted construction site to a sea ship with jet engines, an amusement park, an underground high tech research base, an island with radioactive fog (GENIUS!) to finally a waste land... you can't help not thinking of ways to overcome those forced backstories.   

• Mottyskills

  

  • 248 posts
   

  February 5, 2018 4:31 PM EST

  Noodles said:

  Compared to many other rpgs out there, Skyrim most important in this case, the Fallout 4 protagonists's backstories are the most limited. But when you get to experience all the "exotic" lands and quests in the game, from a haunted construction site to a sea ship with jet engines, an amusement park, an underground high tech research base, an island with radioactive fog (GENIUS!) to finally a waste land... you can't help not thinking of ways to overcome those forced backstories.   

  Well said Noodles. 

• Legion

  

  • 700 posts
   

  February 5, 2018 5:54 PM EST

  Mottyskills said:

  What do you say?

  Character building is something I struggle with immensely in FO4, and it's why I've deleted more WiP builds than I've actually ever posted for any game. I've mostly reconciled the forced story with the Full Dialogue Interface and Silent Protagonist mods, but I still find it difficult to build in FO. I have one build in reserves that I actually liked enough to play through multiple times, but that's one among many. 

  The growing plethora of builds we have for Fallout speaks to its strength as a foundation for character building. The game was clearly (if not explicitly) designed to encourage a ton of different playstyles. My struggle is that I have trouble separating the character from the build in a way that lets me combine perks and playstyles in a novel way. For me, the character comes first. That's my natural first step. I believe Noodles once said (and correct me if I'm wrong, Noodles) that he creates the build first, then shapes the character around the build. That's something I wish I could do! I might have a dozen builds by now if that were the case. At least one! 

  I also have some gripes with some of the perks. VANS and Awareness are in garbage tier. Absolute wastes of space in the perk tree. Charisma is a grab bag of full-sized candy bars and razor apples. Steady Aim makes no sense at Strength 7, and Basher makes even less sense at Strength 8. Refractor is in garbage tier too (if it was combined with Toughness, that perk might actually be worth taking). It seems to me that the further you progress through some SPECIAL trees, the less return on your perk investment you get. Perks like Nerd Rage, Gun Fu, Blitz, and Solar Powered have such power and utility that they can be justified as rank 10 perks. But then we look at the others, and it becomes evident that the perk trees are not scaled together in a harmonious way. Pain Train only applies to power armor users. It has no uses outside of PA, and no true utility. Intimidation and Wasteland Whisperer only proc 40% of the time. They don't even give you a coin flip's chance, and the chance to pacify doesn't scale with CHR or by leveling the perk! 

  I could go on, but I think that demonstrates my issues clearly enough. Too many perks are simply taking up space or locked behind (what I believe to be) inappropriate SPECIAL stats for what they do (or don't) do. Taking that into consideration, it's really no wonder I've had a hellish time building anything for FO4. But believe me, I want to. So if someone could convince me that I have it all wrong, I'd be most grateful.

  
  This post was edited by Legion at February 5, 2018 5:55 PM EST
• Ragin Cajun

  

  • 215 posts
   

  February 5, 2018 6:19 PM EST

  For me it's been a great game.  As noted a silent protagonist would be nice or the ability to go all Hannibal Lector on people in the Commonwealth if the mood hit.  Somehow the dialogue isn't great...but with some suspension of disbelief and creative uses of the stock answers, you can really tweak a character.  The biggest challenge to overcome, in my opinion, is the base storyline of father/mother searching for kidnapped son.  I mean seriously, how anyone could side with the Institute after that intro is beyond me.  But I'm doing just that in my current event build.  And the BOS...most seem to hate the arrogance but in my tiered Brotherhood build it really helped to see another side of the individuals that make up the BOS, rather than the machina itself (check Scribe Haylen's holotape if you haven't yet).  I'm working on builds 11 and 12 (seems like more than that...lol) and I was talking on my stream the other day and probably mentioned 2-3 other ideas that just came up during the stream. 

• SpookyBorn2021

  

  • 1467 posts
   

  February 5, 2018 6:35 PM EST

  My only successfully completed build with Fallout 4 was specifically designed to avoid conversation and quests...Does that say enough about my take on the game?For me, as much as I do genuinely love some of the combat (I can't say that I'm a fan of ranged VATS or sniping in general which is a bummer because I usually love sniping) it's always going to be dragged down by the fact that I can't stand the story, dialogue, voiced protagonist, most of the dialogue, the majority of quests that I've tried out...Urgh, I feel like I'm just ripping on it.

  Basically, if it was just the Main Quest, or if I had access to some of these big mods (are they on Xbox or PC only?) that make the dialogue bearable, then I'd definitely be able to get into the game and build, but because the vast majority of the quests I've encountered have been mediocre at best...well it just stops me from playing half the characters I'd want to. That's even harder because from what I've experienced, Quests give you so much EXP that it becomes a grinding game if you're trying to hit Level 30 with just mobs, so it's very difficult to play a full Level 50 character and avoid quests.

  It's not impossible, it's just harder than it's worth for me. Maybe if I could fully tweak the game and make it so I had lower SPECIAL (16-18 total at Level 1) and then changed it so you needed 2 perks for 1 SPECIAL increase, but allowed perks to being chosen at any level. Then added in mods that change the Dialogue system and the Silent Protagonist, then I'd enjoy the game immensely and build to my heart's content. 

  But yeah...that's my problem in a nutshell. There are so many things I'd have to change to make building viable for me personally, and then there's a higher chance that others won't play it that way/enjoy it. I still like to give it a shot from time to time, and Mini-Builds work out to a decent extent, but yeah.

   

  I will say that I definitely agree with the premise of your discussion Motty. The variables in Gameplay do nearly outweigh how difficult it is to build a character. It's pretty great and deserves a lot of praise. 

• Noodles

  

  • 277 posts
   

  February 5, 2018 6:52 PM EST

  Legion said:

  Mottyskills said:

  What do you say?

  Character building is something I struggle with immensely in FO4, and it's why I've deleted more WiP builds than I've actually ever posted for any game. I've mostly reconciled the forced story with the Full Dialogue Interface and Silent Protagonist mods, but I still find it difficult to build in FO. I have one build in reserves that I actually liked enough to play through multiple times, but that's one among many. 

  The growing plethora of builds we have for Fallout speaks to its strength as a foundation for character building. The game was clearly (if not explicitly) designed to encourage a ton of different playstyles. My struggle is that I have trouble separating the character from the build in a way that lets me combine perks and playstyles in a novel way. For me, the character comes first. That's my natural first step. I believe Noodles once said (and correct me if I'm wrong, Noodles) that he creates the build first, then shapes the character around the build. That's something I wish I could do! I might have a dozen builds by now if that were the case. At least one! 

  I also have some gripes with some of the perks. VANS and Awareness are in garbage tier. Absolute wastes of space in the perk tree. Charisma is a grab bag of full-sized candy bars and razor apples. Steady Aim makes no sense at Strength 7, and Basher makes even less sense at Strength 8. Refractor is in garbage tier too (if it was combined with Toughness, that perk might actually be worth taking). It seems to me that the further you progress through some SPECIAL trees, the less return on your perk investment you get. Perks like Nerd Rage, Gun Fu, Blitz, and Solar Powered have such power and utility that they can be justified as rank 10 perks. But then we look at the others, and it becomes evident that the perk trees are not scaled together in a harmonious way. Pain Train only applies to power armor users. It has no uses outside of PA, and no true utility. Intimidation and Wasteland Whisperer only proc 40% of the time. They don't even give you a coin flip's chance, and the chance to pacify doesn't scale with CHR or by leveling the perk! 

  I could go on, but I think that demonstrates my issues clearly enough. Too many perks are simply taking up space or locked behind (what I believe to be) inappropriate SPECIAL stats for what they do (or don't) do. Taking that into consideration, it's really no wonder I've had a hellish time building anything for FO4. But believe me, I want to. So if someone could convince me that I have it all wrong, I'd be most grateful.

  Ugh yes, a previous build of mine failed miserably because Steady Aim is placed so high in the strength tree. The perk kind of makes sense to be a part of strength since you need a firm grip and a sturdy arm to fight off the recoil of a gun... at least I think so since I've never fired a gun before. But I feel like should've been placed much lower than it is.

  For me, I've found out that the best way to play an enjoyable character is to start with an idea or a theme then develop around that the character's backstory, personality, choices and gameplay as you play. I never know from the beginning the full extent of my end game character. I usually start small with a core idea that gives some insight into the why and how of my new character. Take "cyberpunk" as an example. It spells high tech, low life and right there I get some thoughts on what to pursue: laser weaponry, computer hacker, badass rebel. Later on as I play some more, I figure my character would definitely be part of Anonymous IRL and that's how I get one good reason to fight for synth rights... by joining the Railroad. Next I realize I'm getting my ass kicked by those assaultron lasers if I don't have Jet on me. So what to do? Invest a bit more into agility and get Blitz. Pop in front of those rusty buckets, cancel the VATS and use those sweet hacking skills from Robotics Expert. And since I've started using Blitz, I really need a melee weapon. I'm in luck cause' those spiked baseball bats bring out a punk's street attitude in my character. I look at what perks would fit this theme best and I make sure to compromise when possible. SURE I'd love to invest into that Basher perk for my cowboy character and hit those ghouls with the back of my shotgun but ultimately I end up sacrificing too many points into strength for something not really worth it. Maybe this helps? 

  
  This post was edited by Noodles at February 5, 2018 6:52 PM EST
• Legion

  

  • 700 posts
   

  February 6, 2018 5:17 PM EST

  Noodles said:

  Ugh yes, a previous build of mine failed miserably because Steady Aim is placed so high in the strength tree. The perk kind of makes sense to be a part of strength since you need a firm grip and a sturdy arm to fight off the recoil of a gun... at least I think so since I've never fired a gun before. But I feel like should've been placed much lower than it is.

  For me, I've found out that the best way to play an enjoyable character is to start with an idea or a theme then develop around that the character's backstory, personality, choices and gameplay as you play. I never know from the beginning the full extent of my end game character. I usually start small with a core idea that gives some insight into the why and how of my new character. Take "cyberpunk" as an example. It spells high tech, low life and right there I get some thoughts on what to pursue: laser weaponry, computer hacker, badass rebel. Later on as I play some more, I figure my character would definitely be part of Anonymous IRL and that's how I get one good reason to fight for synth rights... by joining the Railroad. Next I realize I'm getting my ass kicked by those assaultron lasers if I don't have Jet on me. So what to do? Invest a bit more into agility and get Blitz. Pop in front of those rusty buckets, cancel the VATS and use those sweet hacking skills from Robotics Expert. And since I've started using Blitz, I really need a melee weapon. I'm in luck cause' those spiked baseball bats bring out a punk's street attitude in my character. I look at what perks would fit this theme best and I make sure to compromise when possible. SURE I'd love to invest into that Basher perk for my cowboy character and hit those ghouls with the back of my shotgun but ultimately I end up sacrificing too many points into strength for something not really worth it. Maybe this helps? 

  It should be placed much lower, I agree. From what I understand about hip fire IRL, it's more of a perception thing, and understanding your weapon's weight and behavior. But it's also rarely used because real life isn't a video game. So for what the perk does in game, Strength makes enough sense. Just needs to be lower. I too recently had a build screwed over by Steady Aim, because it would have been literally the only perk in Strength I'd have taken. 

  Anyway, yes, hearing your method to building does help. I have this thing where if I don't go into the game with a long-term plan for my character, I end up wandering around and losing focus, and eventually dropping the character. So I really like how you take a character into the world and adapt it as you play. That's something I'll try with this character I've been mulling over. Right now he's a bit of a one-note build, and certainly has some things that can be tweaked. 

• Mottyskills

  

  • 248 posts
   

  February 9, 2018 12:24 PM EST

  I concur on the odd perk placements and useless perks (never once used VANS or steady aim either). 

  But as DB noted, my premise is the flexibility in gameplay mechancis 'nearly' outwieghs the other character/RP related issues. 

• Noodles

  

  • 277 posts
   

  February 9, 2018 1:43 PM EST

  Mottyskills said:

  I concur on the odd perk placements and useless perks (never once used VANS or steady aim either). 

  But as DB noted, my premise is the flexibility in gameplay mechancis 'nearly' outwieghs the other character/RP related issues. 

  I've actually found VANS to be a great way to enhance your roleplay perspective! 

• Legion

  

  • 700 posts
   

  February 9, 2018 6:38 PM EST

  Mottyskills said:

  I concur on the odd perk placements and useless perks (never once used VANS or steady aim either). 

  But as DB noted, my premise is the flexibility in gameplay mechancis 'nearly' outwieghs the other character/RP related issues. 

  Which is a fair point. I just went off on a tangent to get that thorn out of my side. 

  Noodles said:

   I've actually found VANS to be a great way to enhance your roleplay perspective! 

  I'll bite. Is it like Skyrim's Clairvoyance spell, but better? 

• Ragin Cajun

  

  • 215 posts
   

  February 10, 2018 9:44 AM EST

  I actually hip fire a lot.  On guns with scopes you can't see around you when focused in so it's helpful to hip fire when enemies are closing in.  So steady aim does help there.  I don't usually go up the strength tree though however I could see times to use it. 

• The Long-Chapper

  

  • 295 posts
   

  February 10, 2018 10:02 AM EST

  Ragin Cajun said:

  I actually hip fire a lot.  On guns with scopes you can't see around you when focused in so it's helpful to hip fire when enemies are closing in.  So steady aim does help there.  I don't usually go up the strength tree though however I could see times to use it. 

  Was worth it to go up the strength tree twice for Steady aim and Basher perks alone, especially for my double barrel shotgun builds. Bashing is just so satisfying with that weapon. I don't care what damage it actually does, it's just awesome to smack someone with a shotgun. I used to think that my preference was sneaky stuff with scopes and VATS, but not so sure now. 

  There are a lot of ways to play this game and do it successfully. 

• Noodles

  

  • 277 posts
   

  February 10, 2018 11:35 AM EST

  Legion said:

  Mottyskills said:

  I concur on the odd perk placements and useless perks (never once used VANS or steady aim either). 

  But as DB noted, my premise is the flexibility in gameplay mechancis 'nearly' outwieghs the other character/RP related issues. 

  Which is a fair point. I just went off on a tangent to get that thorn out of my side. 

  Noodles said:

   I've actually found VANS to be a great way to enhance your roleplay perspective! 

  I'll bite. Is it like Skyrim's Clairvoyance spell, but better? 

  I wouldn't say better since at first you can't move.

  

   

• Legion

  

  • 700 posts
   

  February 10, 2018 10:16 PM EST

  Huh, okay, I'll give it a shot. Would probably be pretty helpful actually since my compass disappeared. As in, not even the cardinal directions display. Has this always been the case in survival? I swear it hasn't.