Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Yvara

  

  • 8 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 9:20 AM EDT

  Hi everyone,

  since i played and worked on a character build the last two weeks and it didn't quite turned out to be as fun as i expected i was thinking. Designing the character and writing the guide for it was actually a lot of fun but actually playing it not so much. Since then i asked myself the question what characters really made for an enjoyable playthrough for me gameplaywise besides having good Lore/RP elements (The character i was playing had a solid background) since your fantasy can only carry you so far when the combinations of perks/skills etc. doesn't quite match. I don't mean being not overpowered enough by that more like the actions you can take blend together well and make for a fluent distinct gameplay, give you a nice feel of progression and uniqueness together with your Lore/RP elements.

  Apparently what is considered fun differs greatly from one person to another but i thought it may be a good idea to share my thoughts about the meta aspect of character building and maybe get other people to share their thoughts too so we can learn from each other.

  I'm playing on PS3 so my views are influenced by the hotkey/mod restrictions of the platform. Here's a list with some character building guidelines (with short explanations) i plan to follow more or less strictly. Some of this may be basic knowledge:

  • Only one crafting skill: When planning a character it's a lot of fun thinking about the awesome combinations you can do with several crafting skills. Actually playing the game is much different for me. I see myself enjoying finding new items not so much and actually thinking more about my gear than actually playing the game
  • A maximum of 6 major skills: Actually i mostly have 4 major and two minor skills. This levels the skills at a rate i'm neither to weak nor to strong and doesn't feel too generalistic.
  • At least one Skill for Offence, Defense and (Healing): You could also buy healing potions but you have to make sure your defense and amount of money is high enough to get by with it without making it a reload fest
  • Restricting the use of spells: The spells i use should fit to the RP aspect of my character build. If i use the school of illusion for the fear effect for my orc barbarian i would not use calm or other spells. This makes the magic schools much more enjoyable for me
  • Don't get all Dragon Shouts, Powers, etc.: Similar to spells i only try to get dragon shouts that fit the lore of the character and not more than 3. Since you have to change the hotkey everytime i find it more immersion breaking to go into the main menu everytime than the feeling of diversion
  • This brings me to my next point. My combined used spells, weapons, items etc. should be comfortably accessible with the help of the two hotkeys and the favorite menu without getting too confusing. The most used combinations should be hotkeyed of course.
  • The character should be clearly defined with perks at lvl 25 but also have a distinct lvl 50 perk spread: One reason is i mostly see myself (and i think i'm not alone with that) playing characters about too level 25 when i finish their main goals or start a different one i have an idea for. But it's nice too have a plan if you enjoy the character enough too play it to lvl 50
  • Give the character things/goals to look forward too: The quests/activies available in skyrim should be combined with the lore/background story of the character so he has a feeling of porpuse while roaming the land
  • Item progression: Most people enjoy getting more and more powerful items. The most enjoyable way for me was finding them in the world (and improving them with crafting skills). Also adding some lore friendly unique items/artifacts with quests for different levels can go a long way to keep playing the character interesting
• Jéferson

  

  • 41 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 9:50 AM EDT

  1)Originality: Every character needs something that makes hin/her unique. Your new build can be just another BattleMage, but the different use of one skill can change this.

  2)Roleplay: Like Ben said, even when you powerplay you need to keep at least a low level of "roleplay rules". For exemple, there is a brazilian youtuber, very famous, that make Skyrim videos. He once made a video about paladins. In this video, his Paladin was wearing Daedric Armor. DAEDRIC ARMOR FOR GOD'S SAKE. That kind of thing must be avoided. Roleplaying isn't just about creating a personality to your character, but to focus on a good looking gear, that will fit the build's lore.

• Yvara

  

  • 8 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 10:29 AM EDT

  Yes Lore and Roleplaying are very important to a character. The most fun things while playing skyrim are actually added by your own fantasy.

  But the build hast to also have a solid base of gameplay mechanics. I stepped into that trap recently while creating a character thinking about a backstory and fitting quests and a perk spread. When i actually tried to play the character (really motivated) i realized: "crap that isn't fun at all." 

  So came the motivation to think about what parts of a build really made it entertaining/annoying aside from the roleplay/Lore.

  Also i read some of the guides on this site that look really neat and you want to play them but if your honest with your gameplay experience it just won't work out. There's obviously no formula for a perfect build since everyone has own preferences. Just wanted to hear what guidelines other people follow when designing a build after they have a nice RP theme in their head.

• Shuuiketsu

  

  • 127 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 10:32 AM EDT

  Finding unique powers, moves, combos.
  And ofcourse playing on the hardest difficulty possible.

• Yvara

  

  • 8 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 10:32 AM EDT

  That's a really good summary actually. Restriction. Restriction at the right time and places.

• Yvara

  

  • 8 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 10:37 AM EDT

  You are right about combos! Awesome feeling if you find one that fits the character build and is actually helpful.

  I changed my mind about diffculty recently. Used to play on expert a lot but since making builds i really felt how the game was designed for adept difficulty and offers alot more viable design choices if you play on adept.

• Shuuiketsu

  

  • 127 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 10:49 AM EDT

  When you kill an enemy on legendary, combat lasts longer and when you execute him, that satisfaction... and joy... Bwahahah!

• Yvara

  

  • 8 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 11:26 AM EDT

  Yeah ;). But i always shat my pants when i saw a boss enemy carrying a Two-Hander running towards me on higher difficulties -_-.

• Shuuiketsu

  

  • 127 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 11:45 AM EDT

  Ha. I suggest using Slow Time shout then.
  They're like "Get out of the way, bitch."

• Kyrielle Atrinati

  

  • 291 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 12:54 PM EDT

  I concur with this notion.  Making up your own quests is far more fun to me.  My favorite thing to do is to take a small in-game side/miscellaneous quest and blow it up into this huge main quest for my character.  It makes that side quest seem much more important simply because my character sees it as important.  Now, it does require a bit of imagination to add in steps to that quest that don't exist, but that's also most of the fun.

  Take for example Saadia's quest.  It's relatively small and is really limited to the Whiterun region.  Who's to say you couldn't make that quest much longer by actually investigating every Redguard female in Skyrim?  How do you know the woman didn't escape Whiterun?  Suppose there are other forces at play other than the Redguard?  What if the Thalmor really are involved?

  You could add multiple dimensions to that one quest and turn it into something bigger.  Another thing you can do is link unrelated quests together.  Several miscellaneous quests could actually be parts of a much more complex plot that your character becomes sucked into.  You could be serving the Jarls and fulfilling bounties only to find that you're actually appealing to a Daedric Prince.

• Mason

  

  • 739 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 1:34 PM EDT

  In the past I think I've agreed on all the points made here at some point, the problem is what appeals to me one week repels me the next.  I think the only solid advice is to have some kind of gameplan in terms of what your character is going to do and also to spend some time thinking about the perks/powers you're going to select.

  Some characters will suit only having 4 skills; for example an archery, two handed, heavy armor and alchemy set up will do very well but it can begin to feel a little one dimensional and boring (to me) and I lose interest. Running 8 or even 10 skills AND keeping your character viable is challenging and enjoyable.

  I also do not share most peoples dislike of crafting, the current poll would be a very different story if we didn't have the current alchemy/smithing/enchanting options in the game, people love to customise and yes, people love to grind. Grinding skills is an rpg thing that will always keep people coming back for more. Imagine what character development would be like without the trade skills for a few moments, 'hollow' is the word that comes to my mind, it would lack the depth that I've come to enjoy.

  Look at how well 'Spellmaking' is doing in the current poll, another example for how personalising and 'powering up' is a widely loved feature, we can't get enough.

  I can see how no-crafting characters are appealing, but in my experience you condemn your character to being a half-wit who walks past a forge without sharpening their weapon, it actually does more harm to my RP not to craft. The key is to use trade skills in a way that feels balanced to your character.

  The favourites menu is another thing that people bring up as destroying gameplay, I completely disagree with this as well.

  If I'm running a character that barely ever has to open favourites i'll likely find myself hacking mindlessly through dungeons with one weapon, or spamming the same couple of spells for hours on end. It's fucking boring as hell. If I'm in favourites it's because I'm having to think more about my actions during battle to stay alive and I find this more engaging. I do wish Bethesda had used the old d-pad hotkeys like Oblivion sometimes but I never mold my characters around the problem, it would cause more harm than good.

• Teccam

  

  • 189 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 2:03 PM EDT

  First off, I think it's important to note that, in my opinion at least, there is a definite difference between the presentation of a written build, and the experience of playing that same build.  When I read a build, I love to see the lore, the roleplaying value, the challenges, the goals, etc.  But when I'm playing a build, I want that stuff to happen organically; if it doesn't, I probably won't bother trying to enforce it.  In all builds, I think that a degree of restriction is definitely good.  However, personally, I tend to like to push the boundaries of the mechanics I explore, even if it leads to my character being overpowered.

  For example, I'm currently playtesting a build for a Khajiiti Temple Master, using different colored guard armor to represent mastery over each of the different temple styles.  The challenges for that build include finding a way to make H2H viable in combat on a character using a partial set of weak light armor, and finding a way to make each temple style feel unique.  To face these challenges, I decided to use my favorite exploit in the game: 100% Fortify Shouts.  Yvara, in the comments for the Revakriid, you suggested using the Fortify Restoration loop to get to 100% Fortify Shouts with just an Amulet of Talos, negating the need to train Enchanting or pick up the Blessing of Talos every eight hours. Even though that is a pretty major exploit, it really helps to differentiate each style.

  e.g., the Goutfang style, which I primarily use against human NPCs, is focused around the Disarm Shout.  By getting rid of my enemies' weapons, I force them to come "down" to my level, where they cannot hope to compete with a master of unarmed combat.  For Whispering Claw, which I use against Dwemer, dragons, and large animals, I focus on Slow Time.  This allows me to literally run circles around my enemies, picking at their vital spots until the collapse (all in a split second, from their perspectives).  For the Rawlith Khaj style, I use Drain Vitality.  The longer a battle lasts, the greater my advantage will be -- and battles may last quite a while, given the limitations for boosting unarmed damage.  Yeah, being able to override the Shout cooldown is a serious exploit, but it can really add longevity and entertainment to an otherwise two-dimensional build.  In this case, it takes a character with the most gimped combat style in the game, wearing one of the weakest possible armor kits in the game, and turns him into an absolute badass.

  And for me, that's what it's all about.  I love playing builds that hold some sort of ultimate power.  Obviously I also value lore, aesthetics, roleplaying, synergy, immersion, etc., and I think it's good to have some weaknesses and drawbacks to overcome.  But I don't like playing builds that simply cannot become powerhouses.  I feel like, when the game becomes more challenging, it just means I have to spend more time on maintenance, and less time on adventuring.  That's not fun to me.  That's why I almost never play on Master.

• Remy

  

  • 59 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 2:14 PM EDT

  Wow Mason, spot on! (Goes of to make character built "the grinder" )

  Joking aside,

  I once made a simple build around the hotkey problem (2hander, bow, and healing+alchemy). He was great to explore the game when it was new enuf, then it got boring like hell indeed.

  Those personal qeusts are great, especialy when it gets unusual.

  Offtopic:

  Thing is I would be way more happy if could combine Summon(x1/2/3)+Flesh and candle spell. that way I dont have to spend 15 secs to scroll throuch my menu to get al components each time a fight starts. This hate goes thus far that I actualy Supersmith boots to mimick the mage armour...

  Now I think of it, just combining existing spells together in one cast would be so much better already. (exp to the weakest of the scools)

   

  Better yet, make such a spell "charge up" so when u stil have 30 secs of armour left, you dont have to pay for that again. Then you can even trow in healing, lol. Ultimate deffensive spell. Here's hoping

  Oh, and while im whining, make a stackable weaknes to magica perk in the destruction tree

• Yvara

  

  • 8 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 3:30 PM EDT

  I agree on the grinding thing otherwise mmorpgs wouldn't be so popular. Personaly i enjoy upgrading my gear and put a little effort in it but it should certainly take less than half of my game time. In no way i condemn crafting i just like to run one crafting skill that gives me a good balance of progressing and not having to worry about it too much. Theory Crafting is something totally different (If also done my fair share of numbercrunching which crazy numbers could be achieved with certain combinations).

  The favorites menu is a good thing i just hate characters with let's say more than 20 entries in it, because then i will go to the main menu to pick my stuff because it's more convenient and that's somehow a total immersion breaker for me if i have it to do all the time.

• Yvara

  

  • 8 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 3:45 PM EDT

  I don't think it's bad to have a strong character. He should be strong especially at the end of his development. Actually what you describe is pretty much how i try to create a character too. I have a roleplaying idea and my guidelines. That itself puts certain restrictions to it. But i try to build the best/most powerful character within those boundaries.

  The comment on the Revakriid: I just thought it would be good for people to know because there's a more comfortable exploit to achieve 100% to what was written in the guide (which was also an exploit). Personally i don't use exploits anymore because everytime i use one for my characters a longer phase of skyrim aversion follows (Not that this is a necessarly a bad thing ). If people can use eploits and keep the momentum it can allow for really creative and fun character builds.

• Kyrielle Atrinati

  

  • 291 posts
   

  March 23, 2013 3:52 PM EDT

  I don't like having a whole ton of things favorited, either.  To me, your favorites menu (if you're playing a really hardcore RP experience) should be limited to about 10-15 items that can only be reconfigured in town or in a camp.  It seems a little odd that you could readjust and configure every item you're carrying while you're running around adventuring.  10-15 items would be about the number of easily accessible things you could carry on your body and within reach.

  On that note, a restriction on the number of useable weapons you're carrying might be useful and a bit challenging.  I tend to assume that even though I can't see my bow, I have it equipped along with my sword.  That's a reasonable assumption given you could easily have both strapped to your person.  I guess the most well-trained warrior could probably equip all at once: 1 bow and 1 quiver of arrows/1 two-handed weapon or 1 shield, 2 one-handed weapons, 1 dagger.

  But even that is stretching it.  I'd almost limit it 2 weapon types at any time and weapons on your body (favorited) again can only be reconfigured between excursions.  The idea is to treat your inventory as if it is composed of real items and force weapon choices to be significant for each venture.  Add into that a restriction on what you can and cannot reasonably carry in your "pack", and you REALLY have to start thinking about your looting practices.  You might actually have to make multiple trips inside a dungeon if you want to clear out all the loot, or start focusing on high value-to-weight ratio items.

• Henson

  

  • 490 posts
   

  March 26, 2013 7:24 PM EDT

  I dig variety. Taking multiple skills and combining them in different combinations for cool effects and synergies. My Fearmonger was one of the most fun builds because everything helped each other. I also like giving skills different "feels". What I mean by that is giving a character's skill a background so to speak and of course have appropriate skills aligned with the class idea I am going for.

  As Ben said nicely, restriction is awesome. I have lately been trying to strip down everything I have done before to see where viable limits are. Being able to minimize perk allocation and still kick butt is satisfying at times.

• Nelaf

  

  • 365 posts
   

  March 26, 2013 7:30 PM EDT

  Well said Henson, too many builds lately have major optional gaps in them, gameplay wise, you should restrict it as much as possible, to make sure people stick to your build, not how they usually play, otherwise there is no point in making battle tactics etc. if it is so open and non-restricted.

  P.S Henson, wanna talk about your build a little more in PM, juggle some other ideas around for future builds  - Olaf.