You know I think that's right. Man, a few years ago it was like walking on eggshells  mentioning MK or OOG sources. That could have been around the time he was quite active on the forums and there was a sort of backlash. Trouble is with those days prior to ESO was OOG sources were the only way of getting new lore, and MK was the most active source. ESO came along and removed the need due to sheer wealth of new sttuff it brought with it in an evolving fashion, and a lot of that backed up previously dubious OOG sources - such as Imperial Census of Daedra Lords which, up until then, was firmly in the "non-Canon" zone. So I think now there is a trend towards acceptance of a lot of stuff previously dismissed.

I think, it's not so much ESO but I think, probably Morrowind that I think really helped things out, by that I mean Morrowind (ESO) obviously, not regular Morrowind. Actually, Morrowind doesn't make sense, thought it came out earlier (I actually just keep thinking ESO is older than it actually is), but I think there was a period after ESO, possibly leading up to Tamriel Unlimited (?) where there was still a bit of a negaitve skew regarding MK. I'll go through a bit of a trek through the Lore Group and see if I can find any hints, but just a quick check at the Great thread of all things CHIM is a pretty good sign that it was definitely post-2015, possibly 2016. All I know is that I'm pretty certain it was around when I was first starting to get interested in Lore (which definitely explains by Altmer/Dunmeri preferences doesn't it).

Evisceration of Dibella. I like that phrase! The Altmeri pantheon is predominantly male, with Mara being the sole goddes and almost relegated to "just the wife of Auriel" position. Being the only goddess must be a lot of weight for one goddess to carry in that she needs to embody every aspect of femininity. I know I made a big deal at the time of Syrabane being referred to as a goddess, but I think that's only by one NPC next to one statue. I think there are one or two sources calling Y'ffre a goddess, too, but by and large most sources have these deities firmly male.

NO PHIL! Stick with your heart :P I mean, I still admiteddly find it a bit strange that the Daedra are as fluid as they are (and my belief that their gender and form might be influenced by their worshippers rather than being something they choose.) but the Aedra are somehow locked into their forms. Though I guess you could argue that it could still be the influence of their worshippers having certain beliefs. But, uh...shit forgot where I was going with this. 

I mean, I think Mara tends to get forgotten a bit by most of the races of Man and Mer. I mean, she's either relegated an side role or lots of her aspects overlap with either Dibella or Kyne (Kynareth, etc.) so they get diluted a little bit. 

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/AxiusRevan]A-Pocky-Hah![/url] said:[/b] Can't comment much since I'm on mobile (and will be for a while), but damn I just love that mention about Altmeri sacred numbers. Bookmarked! :D The importance of the numbers Five and Eight feels very eastern Asian-inspired, with the Five Elements being a similar concept to Wu Xing. And people say the Akaviri were Asian-inspired. :P I do wonder what they mean by the Aether element. Is magicka considered as its own element?[/blockquote]

Wu Xing. Imagine I'm totally ignorant, Pocky, and please elaborate xD I have very little knowledge about numerology in Asian cultures, except to say I think it's a thing.

The Aether things is interesting. I think it means "spirit" which makes sense for the Altmer who long to go back to that pure state and have built their culture around the veneration of the best of their ancestor spirits. Similar to how light for the Ayleids was their fifth element, light and spirit being interchangeable in TES metaphysics. 

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Dragonborn2121]Dragonborn2121[/url] said:[/b]

You know I think that's right. Man, a few years ago it was like walking on eggshells  mentioning MK or OOG sources. That could have been around the time he was quite active on the forums and there was a sort of backlash. Trouble is with those days prior to ESO was OOG sources were the only way of getting new lore, and MK was the most active source. ESO came along and removed the need due to sheer wealth of new sttuff it brought with it in an evolving fashion, and a lot of that backed up previously dubious OOG sources - such as Imperial Census of Daedra Lords which, up until then, was firmly in the "non-Canon" zone. So I think now there is a trend towards acceptance of a lot of stuff previously dismissed.

I think, it's not so much ESO but I think, probably Morrowind that I think really helped things out, by that I mean Morrowind (ESO) obviously, not regular Morrowind. Actually, Morrowind doesn't make sense, thought it came out earlier (I actually just keep thinking ESO is older than it actually is), but I think there was a period after ESO, possibly leading up to Tamriel Unlimited (?) where there was still a bit of a negaitve skew regarding MK. I'll go through a bit of a trek through the Lore Group and see if I can find any hints, but just a quick check at the Great thread of all things CHIM is a pretty good sign that it was definitely post-2015, possibly 2016. All I know is that I'm pretty certain it was around when I was first starting to get interested in Lore (which definitely explains by Altmer/Dunmeri preferences doesn't it).

Evisceration of Dibella. I like that phrase! The Altmeri pantheon is predominantly male, with Mara being the sole goddes and almost relegated to "just the wife of Auriel" position. Being the only goddess must be a lot of weight for one goddess to carry in that she needs to embody every aspect of femininity. I know I made a big deal at the time of Syrabane being referred to as a goddess, but I think that's only by one NPC next to one statue. I think there are one or two sources calling Y'ffre a goddess, too, but by and large most sources have these deities firmly male.

NO PHIL! Stick with your heart :P I mean, I still admiteddly find it a bit strange that the Daedra are as fluid as they are (and my belief that their gender and form might be influenced by their worshippers rather than being something they choose.) but the Aedra are somehow locked into their forms. Though I guess you could argue that it could still be the influence of their worshippers having certain beliefs. But, uh...shit forgot where I was going with this. 

I mean, I think Mara tends to get forgotten a bit by most of the races of Man and Mer. I mean, she's either relegated an side role or lots of her aspects overlap with either Dibella or Kyne (Kynareth, etc.) so they get diluted a little bit. 

[/blockquote]

Ha! The great thread of CHIM. Good times!

I definitely think you're right about the worshippers moulding the gods, and it's mortyls who ascribe gender to the spirits. To those worshippers it's exact, like that's what Auriel looks like. It could be that something like Syrabane as a goddess is a symptom of a youthful rebellion. After all, a young new queen is causing waves and fighting against the status quo of Altmeri society. A rethink and re-evaluation of their deities seems natural. For us as players, we can totally see the gods any way we wish. Trinimac is and always will be a goddess in my headcanon.

Okay guys, I'm needing a bit of feedback upon the Oghma thing if anyone gets a sec. I've written a thing and need to know if it makes sense, resonates:

In the Onus of the Oghma, we learn that the word means journal or diary: "Keep, therefore, each and every one of you, an Oghma, an everscriven scroll which shall memorialize thy brief lives." Xarxes, the aspect of the Dragon God of Time whose role is to record the great tree of life, created a wife called Oghma from his favourite moments in history. I think the double-meanings here are important, and that the tree of life can be seen as a literal tree, just as Oghma can be seen as a literal embodiment of the best bits of history. Xarxes's book, his Oghma, is the both the Tree of Life and his wife - the thing he loves most dearly.

It requires a step up the gradient ladder to see that the three time-gods of the Altmeri pantheon, Xarxees, Y'ffre, and Auriel, are three aspects of the same thing: The great Tree of Time. As such, Oghma is wife to that tree, Time's greatest treasure. We can impose a bit of symbology here, reminiscent of Yggdrasil in Norse mythology, and imagine a tree which is the entirety of creation. The tree grows with each word, each story of mortal lives, and around this tree is coiled the Dragon himself, an ouroboros serpent. Oghma is the bark upon which the stories are written, she is the paper of the book. The heart of this tree are the Elder Scrolls themselves.

Wu Xing. Imagine I'm totally ignorant, Pocky, and please elaborate xD I have very little knowledge about numerology in Asian cultures, except to say I think it's a thing.

The Aether things is interesting. I think it means "spirit" which makes sense for the Altmer who long to go back to that pure state and have built their culture around the veneration of the best of their ancestor spirits. Similar to how light for the Ayleids was their fifth element, light and spirit being interchangeable in TES metaphysics. 

I'd always been, at least somewhat under the impression that the Altmer considered Light the fifth element as well, so the idea of Aether is pretty interesting. 

Ha! The great thread of CHIM. Good times!

I definitely think you're right about the worshippers moulding the gods, and it's mortyls who ascribe gender to the spirits. To those worshippers it's exact, like that's what Auriel looks like. It could be that something like Syrabane as a goddess is a symptom of a youthful rebellion. After all, a young new queen is causing waves and fighting against the status quo of Altmeri society. A rethink and re-evaluation of their deities seems natural. For us as players, we can totally see the gods any way we wish. Trinimac is and always will be a goddess in my headcanon.

I like the idea of Trinimac being a goddess, kind of adds even more to the idea that Lorkhan and Trinimac are two parralel lines in a way, opposites of each other in every way. 

Okay guys, I'm needing a bit of feedback upon the Oghma thing if anyone gets a sec. I've written a thing and need to know if it makes sense, resonates:

In the Onus of the Oghma, we learn that the word means journal or diary: "Keep, therefore, each and every one of you, an Oghma, an everscriven scroll which shall memorialize thy brief lives." Xarxes, the aspect of the Dragon God of Time whose role is to record the great tree of life, created a wife called Oghma from his favourite moments in history. I think the double-meanings here are important, and that the tree of life can be seen as a literal tree, just as Oghma can be seen as a literal embodiment of the best bits of history. Xarxes's book, his Oghma, is the both the Tree of Life and his wife - the thing he loves most dearly.

It requires a step up the gradient ladder to see that the three time-gods of the Altmeri pantheon, Xarxees, Y'ffre, and Auriel, are three aspects of the same thing: The great Tree of Time. As such, Oghma is wife to that tree, Time's greatest treasure. We can impose a bit of symbology here, reminiscent of Yggdrasil in Norse mythology, and imagine a tree which is the entirety of creation. The tree grows with each word, each story of mortal lives, and around this tree is coiled the Dragon himself, an ouroboros serpent. Oghma is the bark upon which the stories are written, she is the paper of the book. The heart of this tree are the Elder Scrolls themselves.

Hmm, I think it makes sense to me. So, if I understand it, Oghma could more or less be described as the Journal of Time? A written account of notable moments in history that an aspect of the Dragon God of Time, plucked out and copied painstakingly by Xarxes. She is a part of the tree, the book is made from the Tree of Time, but she is also seperated by the will of Xarxes into his ideal version off moments from the Tree. Is that what you were going for?

y only question would probably be to ask whether the Three Aspects have their own role in nurturing the tree, like how does the symbolism here continue onwards, or is it just a way to understand what Oghma is to Xarxes? 

Wu Xing. Imagine I'm totally ignorant, Pocky, and please elaborate xD I have very little knowledge about numerology in Asian cultures, except to say I think it's a thing.

The Aether things is interesting. I think it means "spirit" which makes sense for the Altmer who long to go back to that pure state and have built their culture around the veneration of the best of their ancestor spirits. Similar to how light for the Ayleids was their fifth element, light and spirit being interchangeable in TES metaphysics. 

I'd always been, at least somewhat under the impression that the Altmer considered Light the fifth element as well, so the idea of Aether is pretty interesting. 

Ha! The great thread of CHIM. Good times!

I definitely think you're right about the worshippers moulding the gods, and it's mortyls who ascribe gender to the spirits. To those worshippers it's exact, like that's what Auriel looks like. It could be that something like Syrabane as a goddess is a symptom of a youthful rebellion. After all, a young new queen is causing waves and fighting against the status quo of Altmeri society. A rethink and re-evaluation of their deities seems natural. For us as players, we can totally see the gods any way we wish. Trinimac is and always will be a goddess in my headcanon.

I like the idea of Trinimac being a goddess, kind of adds even more to the idea that Lorkhan and Trinimac are two parralel lines in a way, opposites of each other in every way. 

Okay guys, I'm needing a bit of feedback upon the Oghma thing if anyone gets a sec. I've written a thing and need to know if it makes sense, resonates:

In the Onus of the Oghma, we learn that the word means journal or diary: "Keep, therefore, each and every one of you, an Oghma, an everscriven scroll which shall memorialize thy brief lives." Xarxes, the aspect of the Dragon God of Time whose role is to record the great tree of life, created a wife called Oghma from his favourite moments in history. I think the double-meanings here are important, and that the tree of life can be seen as a literal tree, just as Oghma can be seen as a literal embodiment of the best bits of history. Xarxes's book, his Oghma, is the both the Tree of Life and his wife - the thing he loves most dearly.

It requires a step up the gradient ladder to see that the three time-gods of the Altmeri pantheon, Xarxees, Y'ffre, and Auriel, are three aspects of the same thing: The great Tree of Time. As such, Oghma is wife to that tree, Time's greatest treasure. We can impose a bit of symbology here, reminiscent of Yggdrasil in Norse mythology, and imagine a tree which is the entirety of creation. The tree grows with each word, each story of mortal lives, and around this tree is coiled the Dragon himself, an ouroboros serpent. Oghma is the bark upon which the stories are written, she is the paper of the book. The heart of this tree are the Elder Scrolls themselves.

Hmm, I think it makes sense to me. So, if I understand it, Oghma could more or less be described as the Journal of Time? A written account of notable moments in history that an aspect of the Dragon God of Time, plucked out and copied painstakingly by Xarxes. She is a part of the tree, the book is made from the Tree of Time, but she is also seperated by the will of Xarxes into his ideal version off moments from the Tree. Is that what you were going for?

y only question would probably be to ask whether the Three Aspects have their own role in nurturing the tree, like how does the symbolism here continue onwards, or is it just a way to understand what Oghma is to Xarxes? 

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/AxiusRevan]A-Pocky-Hah![/url] said:[/b] Here's a basic diagram of Wu Xing: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Wu_Xing.png/300px-Wu_Xing.png Also, here's a link to Chinese Numerology: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_numerology[/blockquote]

Thanks Pocks!

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Dragonborn2121]Dragonborn2121[/url] said:[/b]

Hmm, I think it makes sense to me. So, if I understand it, Oghma could more or less be described as the Journal of Time? A written account of notable moments in history that an aspect of the Dragon God of Time, plucked out and copied painstakingly by Xarxes. She is a part of the tree, the book is made from the Tree of Time, but she is also seperated by the will of Xarxes into his ideal version off moments from the Tree. Is that what you were going for?

y only question would probably be to ask whether the Three Aspects have their own role in nurturing the tree, like how does the symbolism here continue onwards, or is it just a way to understand what Oghma is to Xarxes? 

[/blockquote]

Thankee Deebs! It's hard because it's metaphorical, like we're used to a river of time and there's a book called Xarxes and Oghma that uses the river metaphor, and i think even within that there's layers of meaning about how Oghma joins the river of time, becoming one with it, depending upon how you interpret it. 

To be honest I'm not sure about your last question. It could continue, but it has to descend the gradient ladder to do so. Like, in order to see how the three gods and Oghma fit together, it's necessary to combine them all. So rather than one being the past, one being the present, and one being the whole and end, we sort of need to make them one thing. The tree is all three of the time gods. So to have them seperate and nurturing the tree would be beyond me in that it would require an artist. There are some mad Yggdrasil pictures which have the roles of different concepts exemplified by animals. Like, there's a squirrel called Ratatosk who runs up and down the trunk, relaying messages between the serpent Nidhog below and the eagle, Vedfrolnir, above.

If those creatures were in our TES world tree, we could ascribe meanings to them. The bark upon which the squirrel runs could be Oghma, the sepent would be Auriel, the hawk could be Y'ffre, which would leave the squirrel as Xarxes, the one who interacts with the bark, Oghma, the most. So i guess it's all personal interpretation of how to visualise three time gods as one being and how Oghma fits into that. I'm trying to say that the concepts of trees and trees of life are there, but they are hidden within buried meanings. 

Ironed out and refined the section on Oghma and trees:

One of the things I like to think about when applying the role of trees to TES is the process of transpiration. Trees take in water through the roots which, over time, travels up the tree and gets released as oxygen from the leaves. Needless to say this oxygen is vital for life, and the simple fact is that we need trees in order to live.

Water in TES is memory, or the medium by which memory is preserved and carried. Trees take in this memory and, like the water cycle and transpiration, it gets converted into oxygen the people of Nirn need in order to breathe. I like to think that this means trees are the guardians of history, the keepers of memory. Sometimes we are lucky and some of this memory is preserved for us to experience ourselves. When a tree is damaged it produces resin, a liquid which covers the wound in order to protect the tree from pathogens. Sometimes this resin becomes fossilised and, well, we've all seen Jurassic Park.

Enter Oghma.

In the Onus of the Oghma, we learn that the word means journal or diary: "Keep, therefore, each and every one of you, an Oghma, an everscriven scroll which shall memorialize thy brief lives." Xarxes, the aspect of the Dragon God of Time whose role is to record the great tree of life, created a wife called Oghma from his favourite moments in history. I think the double-meanings here are important, and that the tree of life mentioned can be seen as a literal tree, just as Oghma is a literal embodiment of the best bits of history. Xarxes's book, his Oghma, is the both the Tree of Life and his wife - the thing he loves most dearly.

We can impose a bit of symbology here, reminiscent of Yggdrasil in Norse mythology, and imagine a tree which is the entirety of history. The tree grows with each word, each story of mortal lives penend by Xarxes, and around this tree is coiled the Dragon himself, an ouroboros serpent. Oghma is the bark upon which the stories are written, she is the paper of the book. Oghma is the Tree that preserves all, the keeper and guardian of all memory and all of history.

Expanded upon the section detailing Hermaeus Mora and his absence from the Altmeri pantheon: