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Discussion: The Viability of a Thalmor Dragonborn

Tags: #RP:Discussion 
  • Member
    February 12, 2018

    I was thinking about this in terms of my current character and I have no answer, so here goes. This is largely a roleplaying question but gets into the lore, so I thought it might work better in this forum than the roleplaying forum.

    The Thalmor's presumed goal is to destroy the towers and unmake Mundus, returning them to their ethereal, and non-mortal, forms. Alduin's goal is to eat the world. If those two things are true (well, the latter is true) and if unmaking the world is the same as eating the world, is it viable to have a Thalmor character as the Dragonborn? 

    A couple of ways I have around this is that your character doesn't really know what the end result of "eating the world" is, so it's best to continue on with the plan to destroy the towers. And purely from a roleplaying perspective, you'd think that the Thalmor plan is only known to the highest levels of government, and your character would simply not know.

  • February 12, 2018
    I think it's viable. The Thalmor want to undo existence in a very specific way, they want to return to Aetherius...not be consumed by a flying reptile. It just doesn't seem like an appealing prospect for them. Even if they don't know about the ultimate goal of the higher court then saving the world is simply self preservation. On the other hand, the more they know about both ways if ending the world the less they seem the same anyway. I think it's safe to assume that, if consuming the world started a new kalpa that elves would simply begin anew as mortal elves... resetting all of the Thalmor's progress towards their goal.
  • February 12, 2018
    I could, however, see a Thalmor being apathetic to the whole situation as they wouldn't respect Nordic beliefs enough to grasp the gravity of it. Maybe not even trusting what they learn about the mythology of Alduin and his purpose at all. In which case, their quest to defeat him could just be personal revenge...while they would chalk learning Thu'um so quickly to elven genetics and superior intelligence, no matter what garbage the greybeards try to tell them.
  • Member
    February 12, 2018
    I could see it as them being blessed by Auriel. Also, it doesn't appear that ALL Thalmor wanna fart the world out of existence. Not even all Altmer agree with them
  • Member
    February 12, 2018

    Tysoyaha said: I think it's viable. The Thalmor want to undo existence in a very specific way, they want to return to Aetherius...not be consumed by a flying reptile. It just doesn't seem like an appealing prospect for them. Even if they don't know about the ultimate goal of the higher court then saving the world is simply self preservation. On the other hand, the more they know about both ways if ending the world the less they seem the same anyway. I think it's safe to assume that, if consuming the world started a new kalpa that elves would simply begin anew as mortal elves... resetting all of the Thalmor's progress towards their goal.

    This is the part that I'm unsure of. I don't know if destroying the Towers causes the same effect as eating the world. My understanding is that destroying Mundus begins the cycle of a new kalpa. Did the elves not exist prior to the current kalpa? Even in their non-mortal form? And it's more than possible I'm confusing my terminology here.

  • February 12, 2018

    I think there are probably two important facts that make it pretty viable. The most obvious is just that it's more than likely that lower ranked Thalmor either have no idea about the eventual idea of the organization or that their knowledge of it extends to 'Kill all Humans' and they're pretty fine with that. I mean, I struggle to believe that everyone from the top to the bottom has the same thought process, so it's entirely possible to be a member of the Thalmor and yet either be unaware or just uncaring of their eventual goals.

    I also can't remember but is most of our knowledge on the Thalmor's eventual goal based on MK? I mean the general goal of 'maintaining superiority over man' is entirely canon as far as I know, but I do recall most of the tower stuff being MK stuff, and thus kinda debateable (normally I'm 100% down for MK, but gotta remember that most of it isn't confirmed).

    Anyway, uh. I do think it's viable, and I'll get to the other angle I mentioned earlier. So yeah the other thing to consider is that it's entirely plausible that the idea of a 'God of Man', or related to a 'God of Man' then the Thalmor could have a problem with the idea of a 'God of Man' destroying the world instead of them. Because, remember, Alduin is still a Nordic God and is pretty heavily linked to Akatosh, but not Auri-El. So I could see a Thalmor Agent becoming Dragonborn just to say 'Fuck Off' to a Nordic God. 

  • Member
    February 12, 2018

    Dragonborn1921 said:

    I also can't remember but is most of our knowledge on the Thalmor's eventual goal based on MK? I mean the general goal of 'maintaining superiority over man' is entirely canon as far as I know, but I do recall most of the tower stuff being MK stuff, and thus kinda debateable (normally I'm 100% down for MK, but gotta remember that most of it isn't confirmed).

    The little that I've seen has been a combination of the Book of the Dragonborn from in-game, which references the towers, and tying it to out-of-game tower stuff from MK. (And I say "little" because I've only been thinking about this for about two months instead of six years.) Which in my mind makes it quasi-canon. The Thalmor may simply be trying to establish their own empire on Tamriel and doing some ethnic cleansing on their way to securing it.

    I did read a fairly recent comment from Lady Nerevar that states that the Towers may not be as important as we believe however. (Which I obviously can't find now, but it was on Reddit.) And I believe that Lady Nerevar is MK's wife? So it's possible that the Towers don't do what we thought they might do.

  • February 12, 2018

    Monica21 said:

    This is the part that I'm unsure of. I don't know if destroying the Towers causes the same effect as eating the world. My understanding is that destroying Mundus begins the cycle of a new kalpa. Did the elves not exist prior to the current kalpa? Even in their non-mortal form? And it's more than possible I'm confusing my terminology here.

     

    Well, like most ES lore it's vague and subject to retelling and interpretation...but the way I understand it, they'd be very different. Consuming the world and beginning a new Kalpa would simply reset mortal reality, while destroying the towers would end it. It's basically the lore equivalent to deleting a save and starting a new character verses destroying your console and going outside. Lol. 

    The story is that all mortals are fallen Aedra and while the nomadic tribes lost touch with their divine roots and became man, those who settled and nurtured their mystical heritage became elves. Said elves built the towers as a reflection of Ada-Mantia therefore anchoring and shaping their respective sections of Nirn. Some believe that the heavily bodies of Mundus aren't simply floating in oblivion, but being held above it by the support of these towers...so destroying them would allow Nirn sink back into oblivion and I guess the Thalmor believe that elves have maintained enough if their divinity that they'd become Aedra again if that happened? Who knows if that's how it would go down...but the Thalmor seem to believe it would.

    Of coarse Alduin seems a little more simple at first...he'd just end this version of life on Mundus and start a new one. Pretty straight forward until you get into Umaril's backstory and realize that his father was a divine from a previous Kalpa. If that's to be believed then either Kalpas affect Aedra and Daedra the same as mortals but somehow Divines can interact across Kalpas...or it doesn't affect them at all and it's just mortal understanding of them changes in the new timeline. Supposedly, there are hundreds of Aedra and Daedric princess that we just don't know about, so maybe Umaril's father isn't a divine that no longer exists in this Kalpa, but rather one that isn't known by humanity this time around. An unknown Aedra who was worshipped as one of the eight Divines in the last Kalpa so is therefore "from" it in the mortal perspective.

    So depending on what you choose to believe, restarting reality may or may not affect Aedra, so it may or may not return elven kind to Aetherius...but even if it did, they would have no recollection of this reality and would most likely be doomed to repeat the same, or at least very similar mistakes and become mortal soon after the recreation of the world. Unless they figured out how Umaril's father managed to interact across Kalpas and left themselves a warning of some sort, that wouldn't be the best way to become immortal again.

     

  • February 12, 2018

    Dragonborn1921 said:

    I also can't remember but is most of our knowledge on the Thalmor's eventual goal based on MK?

     

    No. The Thalmor aren't even in Mortal Kombat.

     

    Seriously though, forgive my ignorance...but what's MK stand for?

  • Member
    February 12, 2018

    Tysoyaha said:

    Dragonborn1921 said:

    I also can't remember but is most of our knowledge on the Thalmor's eventual goal based on MK?

     

    No. The Thalmor aren't even in Mortal Kombat.

     

    Seriously though, forgive my ignorance...but what's MK stand for?

    That would be Michael Kirkbride, he's one of the people who originally wrote for the TES series and even after leaving this position has often been seen as instrumental for the lore of the series.  I like some of his stuff but am still extremely conflicted as to what we ought to take as true or false. After all, at this point anything MK says or writes is nothing more than pure fanfiction (I believe he left before Bethesda published Oblivion).

    He's "given" a lot of "info" on the possible ruminations of the Aldmeri Dominion. Something about the elves wanting to get rid of men because this would allow them to reclaim their divine nature... It's some of the parts I care less about but it can be interesting nonetheless.