The Workshop » Discussions


WiP Lore: Xarxes, Oghma, Time... and Trees?

  • Member
    July 20, 2019

    Penitent, know that the secret knowledge of the world has a guardian. Know that every triumph you achieve in your daily life, every quiet moment of success, is recorded by the One Who Watches. The great tree of life tracing the Altmer people is kept and held close by Xarxes himself, the scribe of the Divines.

    To complete your venerations here, intone:

    "By Five and Three I speak the secret words to the One Who Watches. May each of my days be worthy of script in his tomes." ~ The Everscriven Tome

    This is a something I've been meaning to get around to since DB's He Who Carves Wood in the Shape of Gods, a build I really like and very inspired by due to its focus on trees. I had attempted to explore the theme myself in a different way within a character profile, but never actually got around to actually writing what was in my mind or jotting down the connections and subtle links between Xarxes, Auriel, Hermaeus Mora, Oghma, language, and trees.

    The monks of the Serene Harmony Monastery stand as the most renowned "Aednavorith" scholars in all of Summerset. The study of genealogy and ancestry remains a subject of endless interest to all High Elves.

    Xarxes, The One Who Watches, the Elven god of ancestry and secret knowledge is, unsurprisingly, a very mysterious Aedra. Yet despite that his presence is incredibly complicated and his sphere vast and wide. There are few sources about him, so few and straightforward, in fact, that we can summarise them using very little space:

    Varieties of Faith pretty much tells us what we need to know as a starting point:

    Xarxes is the god of ancestry and secret knowledge. He began as a scribe to Auri-El, and has kept track of all Aldmeri accomplishments, large and small, since the beginning of time. He created his wife, Oghma, from his favorite moments in history. ~ Varieties fo Faith

    According to Telenger the Artificer, Xarxes' priesthood is devoted to preserving secrets and knowledge:

    Language, specifically the written word, is also of critical importance to the Altmer. Not only does it preserve our history, but it captures and defines our auspicious lineage and ensures that every Mer knows his or her place in the hierarchy. It is no accident that Altmeri society is the most orderly and structured in Tamriel—it is the will of Xarxes himself. The scholar-priests of the divine scribe, secretive though they are, are said to preserve an ancient tongue long forgotten to any but their order. In Helaameril’s “Conversations with the Etymon-Binders,” an anonymous scribe hints at tomes capable of producing tastes, smells, and dancing images, and texts that can be read by any gazing upon them—even the unlettered. Another form of word-magic, if Helaameril is to be believed. ~ Loremater's Archive: Words and Power

    Slightly more in-depth, the book Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes links this deity with death-gods of other cultures:

    We begin with Xarxes, as his worship, at least as recorded in written history, predates that of both Arkay and Tu'whacca. An Elven deity who records the life-stories of all the races of Aldmeri, Xarxes appears in multiple creation or origin stories, many of which are inconsistent with each other. While some of these origins may be “false,” their multiplicity may also merely be a reflection of Xarxes’ many-fold nature.

    In the two most common origin myths, Xarxes appears either as Auri-El’s scribe, recording events at his side since the beginning of time, or as a Merethic Aldmeri priest of Auri-El who was elevated to divinity by the higher deity. The latter story is consistent with the High Elves’ conceit that they are directly descended from the Aedra, and can, in certain miraculous circumstances, apotheosize and re-ascend to godly status.

    For the Altmer, Xarxes records not just the life stories of individual Elves, but all the connections of lineage and heritance that bind them together and link them to their ancestors. As nothing is more important to an Altmer than his or her ancestry, it is easy to understand Xarxes’ paramount role in defining and maintaining status and stability in Summerset society. ~ Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes

    Onus of the Oghma introduces us to the idea that a journal or diary in Tamriel is called an oghma, an important thing to remember later when talking about Xarxes' bride, Oghma:

    All Tamrielics recognize the duty to memorialize the events of our lives, a duty placed upon us by the Divines at the beginning of time. The most ancient reference we have to this "journaling onus" comes from the Aldmeriad, the great origin saga of the Elves, which quotes the god Xarxes, scribe to Auri-El:

    "As ye are true Children of the et'Ada, thou shalt honor us by honoring thy own lives. For in each of you is housed the Divine Spark, and thus the record of thy actions is a sacred duty. Keep, therefore, each and every one of you, an Oghma, an everscriven scroll which shall memorialize thy brief lives. Thus in at least this way shalt thy Spark be Immortal." ~ The Onus of the Oghma

    Lastly for now, the opening quote from the Everscriven Tome mentions a tree of life:

    Penitent, know that the secret knowledge of the world has a guardian. Know that every triumph you achieve in your daily life, every quiet moment of success, is recorded by the One Who Watches. The great tree of life tracing the Altmer people is kept and held close by Xarxes himself, the scribe of the Divines.

    To complete your venerations here, intone:

    "By Five and Three I speak the secret words to the One Who Watches. May each of my days be worthy of script in his tomes." ~ The Everscriven Tome

    That sentence, "by five and three" got me thinking so I'm also adding Thoughts on the Sacred Numbers just in case:

    As I sit here in the perfection of this garden, I contemplate the Sacred Numbers that we recognize as Auspicious and critical to the existence of the universe.

    Three is the Number of the Prime Celestials, as embodied in the sun and the two moons. It is also the number of my perfect daughters, which is why we shall produce no other heirs.

    Five is the Number of the Elements, for reality consists of Earth, Air, Water, Fire, and Aether. It is also the number of books I have open upon my desk at any given time.

    Eight is the Number of the Planets, as well as the sum of three plus five. Eight is also the limit I impose when drinking glasses of Gossamer Tawny Port with the members of my philosophical society—no more and no less.

    These are the Good Numbers. And the sum of the Good Numbers, which we call Sixteen, is a very powerful number indeed.

    We must beware the Bad Number, though, for Two lacks vision and attempts to display duality, which we all know is impossible. ~ Thoughts on the Sacred Numbers

    Xarxes resembles Hermaeus Mora with all those themes of watching, recording, collecting and preserving. It's pretty uncanny. We know Hermaeus Mora as the Daedric Prince of knowledge, memory and the tides of fate who, according to Imperial Census of Daedra Lords, is said to have been "born of thrown-away ideas used during the creation of mortality in the Mundus." Further, the book asserts that Mora's "influence on fate and time is real and unfeigned, implications of which tie this Prince directly with Akatosh, chief of the Nine Divines. Since Akatosh is the prime temporal spirit whose appearance led to the formation of the world, perhaps Hermaeus Mora speaks the truth." ~ Imperial Census of Daedra Lords.

    As players and enthusiasts we cannot know the truth, only versions of it as seen by the people and cultures in the world. In many of the sources we've looked at, there are references to various creation myths: Onus of the Oghma mentions an Aldmeriad, the great origin story of the elves; whilst Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes references conflicting stories of Xarxes' origins and his many-fold nature. Neither the Aldmeriad nor the conflicting origin stories of Xarxes' divinity are available for us to read in game, but no matter which way we look at him, his links to the Dragon God of Time are plain to see. In the statue seen in the picture above, Auriel faces the congregation, back to back with his scribe, Xarxes.

    Is it plausible, then, that Xarxes is Hermaues Mora? The Gardener of Men tells us his gift to us, the Oghma Infinium, was written by his loyal scribe, Xarxes. That assertion would indicate Xarxes is both Auriel's scribe and Old Mora's, or that Hermaeus and Auriel are one and the same which would support what we know from the Imperial Census book.

    It's worth taking a step back at this stage to remember the concept of Aedra and Deadra are a mortal approach to categorising the original spirits, and that each of these mortal points of view are valid, shaping as they do the deities of their respective cultures. For the Altmer, Xarxes is a great ancestor spirit who is Auriel's Scribe and in no way connected to Mora, the non-ancestor, who doesn't appear anywhere in their myths.

    What if he is there, thoigh? But what if The Woodland Man of Nordic myth is present in merish belief? What if he's there under a different name? Who else besides Xarxes would be seen as a Demon of Knowledge to the Ancient Nords?

    Hermaeus Mora by Orm-Z-Gor

    Herma-Mora (The Woodland Man):
    Ancient Atmoran "Demon of Knowledge" who nearly seduced the Nords into becoming Aldmer. Most Ysgramor myths are about escaping the wiles of old Herma-Mora. Unlike his Bosmeri adherents, the Nords don't deny his Daedric nature. ~ Varieties of Faith: The Nords

    In the Ehlnofex language, Atmora means Elder Wood. Herma-Mora, the Woodland Man, is an enemy god, a testing god who tries to turn men into elves in Nordic myth. It's interesting that this antagonist isn't in Elven myths, after all one would think the mer would be chuffed to have the Woodland Man on their side.

    An unreleased manuscript, read by Rotten Deadite in this Memospore video on the subject of Nordic culture, details what could have been the Nordic creation myth circa TES IV: Oblivion:

    "Way, way back in the beginning when there was only the Grey Maybe, there was a god that is now refered to as Akatosh. He was not yet called by this name, nor was he the same being he is now generally considered to be. Then he was only the First, and contained within him all the mysteries of time - past, present, and future. It is when he forms within the Grey Maybe that time begins. Soon, other gods follow. Among them, Arkay, Mephala and others. Some of these gods lean towards the light of order, Anu, others more towards the chaos, Sithis. As time passes, these distinctions grow stronger and soon the division of Aedra and Daedra is created. Akatosh was drawn to neither. He was Time, all-knowing and all-seeing. Distinctions such as order and chaos meant little. Still, he recognised the split which had occurred and realised time must be represented among both groups. He then divided himself into two aspects: Akatosh, Dragon God of Time, and Hermaeus Mora, Daedric Lord of Past, Present, and Future."

    As mentioned in Varieties of Faith: The Nords, Herma Mora is present in one Aldmeri-born culture, that of the Bosmer. According to them, he is a "malicious trickster spirit (another one!) whose Bosmeri cultists say is not to be confused with the Daedra Hermaeus Mora. (Others deride this assertion.)" ~ Varieties of Faith: The Bosmer. It's worth noting Herma Mora isn't one of the Eight in the Wood Elven pantheon.

    Both the Altmer and Bosmer agree on the three primary time-gods, though. Governing the sphere of time, Auriel reigns supreme as their Dragon God. At his side stands his scribe, Xarxes, who records everything and keeps track of merish ancestry. So it's like we have time broken down into sections, the past is Xarxes' area of expertise, Auriel is time itself, while the third god of time, Y'ffre, is their god of the present.

    The overlap between these entities is obviously quite apparant. This is as it should be as we break through the metaphysical wall that divides cultural perspective and belief with that of monomythic and deeper metaphysics. That is to say, although each god is an entity in their own right, they are each subgradients of a larger soul. Anuiel created Auriel so that he might know himself, and in turn, Auriel gave the Aurbis time from whch other spirts formed. Each spirit, then, is but a subgradient of the Anuiel soul.

    Back down to Nirn. Y'ffre is the god of the Green, the very laws of nature.

    Y'ffre (God of the Forest):
    While Auri-El Time Dragon might be the king of the gods, Y'ffre is revered as the spirit of "the now." According to the Elves, after the creation of the mortal plane everything was in chaos. The first mortals were turning into plants and animals and back again. Then Y'ffre transformed himself into the first of the Ehlnofey, or "Earth Bones." After these laws of nature were established, mortals had a semblance of safety in the new world, because they could finally understand it. ~ Varieties of Faith

    Much like Xarxes in that Y'ffre's sphere is very broad. Being a time god of the here and now, a lot of his focus as intepreted by his faithful Spinners in Bosmeri culture is on stories and potential. The future is a nebulous thing for each story in the present, therefore he sort of represents possibilities and that each and every future is always true. This is best seen in Aurbic Enigma:

    The Boiche Elves were of the Earth Bones who most hearkened to Jephre and his greensongs. They did not build a Tower, they grew it, a great graht-oak whose roots sprang from a Perchance Acorn. And this was their Stone. And because the Acorn might perchance have been elsewhere, thus was Green-Sap manifold and several. And each could walk.

    Therefore each Green-Sap was also every Green-Sap. Within each were told all the stories of the Green, with every ending true, so doors therein were not always Doors Certain. But to this the Boiche-become-Bosmer became inured, and indeed grew to relish these Doors Equivocal, for such was their nature in the schism of the prism. In this way the Bosmer learned which songs made the trees dance, and which dances they might do. ~ Aurbic Enigma 4: The Elden Tree.

    Most obviously, though, Y'ffre is the God of the Forest. Trees in TES lore are an understated thing, often only being mentioned in lore in connection to the Hist. Yet I believe there is firm lore on trees, albeit lore that is buried as deep as roots. We know the name Atmora means Elder Wood. a place said to be frozen in terms of both time and temperature, and we know Herma Mora means The Woodland Man. We can say with a degree of confidence that water is memory, and as such is both Hermaeus Mora's and Xarxes' realm. We have also seen how time in merish culture seems to be governed by three deities, and how Hermaeus Mora is unequivocally linked to the Dragon God of time, as are Y'ffre and Xarxes.

    One of the things I like to think about when applying the role of trees to TES is the process of photosynthesis and transpiration. Trees take in water through their roots and, over time, the water travels up the tree and gets released, and photsynthesis is the chemical convertion of water, carbon dioxide, and light into sugar, creating oxygen as a by-product from the leaves. Needless to say this oxygen is vital for life.

    Water in TES is memory, or the medium by which memory is preserved and carried. Trees take in this memory and, like the water cycle, photosynthesis and transpiration, it gets converted into oxygen the people of Nirn need in order to breathe. Metaphysically, soemthing must be happening to the soul during this cycle, linking trees to the Dreamsleeve.

    I like to think that this means trees are the guardians of history, the keepers of memory. Sometimes we are lucky and some of this memory is preserved for us to experience ourselves. When a tree is damaged it produces resin, a liquid which covers the wound in order to protect the tree from pathogens. Sometimes this resin becomes fossilised and, well, we've all seen Jurassic Park.

    Like most things in TES, I believe this process is embodied by a being we met at the top of the page.

    Oghma.

    In the Onus of the Oghma, we learn that the word means journal or diary: "Keep, therefore, each and every one of you, an Oghma, an everscriven scroll which shall memorialize thy brief lives." Xarxes, the aspect of the Dragon God of Time whose role is to record the great tree of life, created a wife called Oghma from his favourite moments in history. I think the double-meanings here are important, and that the tree of life mentioned can be seen as a literal tree, just as Oghma is a literal embodiment of the best bits of history. Xarxes's book, his Oghma, is the both the Tree of Life and his wife - the thing he loves most dearly.

    We can use a bit of symbolism here, reminiscent of Yggdrasil in Norse mythology, and imagine a tree which is the entirety of history. The tree grows with each word, each story of mortal lives penend by Xarxes, and around this tree is coiled the Dragon himself, an ouroboros serpent. Oghma is the bark upon which the stories are written, she is the paper of the book. Oghma is the Tree of Life, she who preserves all, the keeper and guardian of all memory and history.

    This could link Oghma directly with Mara, the almost-universal fertility goddess associated with Nir from the Anuad, who is married to, or the concubine of, either Akatosh, Auiriel, or Lorkhan depending on religion.

    Yggdrasil by astridfreyjadottir

    So where does Hermaeus Mora fit in with? Herma Mora of the Nordic Pantheon, The Woodland Man, could well be an amalgamation of the three merish time gods, Auriel, Xarxes, and Y'ffre. One governs the sphere of knowledge, secrets and record keeping, the other is the woods and trees, as well as the many possibilities of the future, and all of which are part of Time itself. Much like Xarxes is present in Arkay of the Divines along with Orkey an Tu'wacha, I think something similar is going on with the Nordic Herma-Mora. It would explain the link between what we see as a Daedric Prince and Aedric spirits, and possibly why both Xarxes and Hermaeus Mora both have a book called Oghma. For one the book is also their wife in the sense that he is married to it as it holds his life's work. For the other it is an infinite journal, the Oghma Infinium.The names and titles given to Herma-Mora by the Nords, Demon of Knowledge and The Woodland Man, are thus their culturally-coloured names of gods we are familiar with.

    In a way, Old Mora was telling us the truth when he says it was written by Xarxes - written by another aspect of himself. 

    Up the gradient ladder, they are all the same entity, all part of Time and Space who is Auriel, Akatosh, Alkosh, Lorkhan, Shezzar, Shor and all the other cultural names and reflections He has been given.

    The Tsar of the Seas

    There is a fantastic piece of Apocrypha that says it all way, way better than I: The Ogmismol by Dinmynal.

    Loathe, my claws | to rife these runes
    of hermetic find | in taproot time.
     
    The sheaf-tatters cast | aside to the sea
    their ink to run | and diagrams decay;
    to moldering creep | with mycelial scree,
    and other minutiae | unforeseen by Day.
     
    And shrewdest of these | in schematic-squeeze:
    the bulbous brine-brain | the eight-sucker’d flux
    whose skin engulfed | his selcouth siblings,
    and nurse-nest husk: | Would you know yet more?
     
    He who ‘graves heritance | upon the roots of time
    in the Dawn-dewy hummocks | of Old Mary’s shore-shelves.
    Called Tsar of the Seas | for his soul-skin's rhyme
    of cryptic coloration | to the doom-dumb elves.
     
    But profoundly poignant | prove the tawny knots
    of the womb-webb’d elves | to the lonely scribe.
    His scriven’d hide flexes |rustles his restless hearts,
    and to the Sea he dives: | Would you know yet more?
     
    Then froth’d the waves | and eddies spiraled in
    upon the detritus den, | the Undercliff's gloam,
    where black trunks | stack galleries in brim
    and heart-hollow fall | to write the loam.
     
    Up lurch’d the moss | with squamous hide twitch.
    And a scioptic ball | blinked traceries down
    to the limp cuttle stranded | on the Undercliff's itch
    and its wyrm-Hermit's frown: | Would you know yet more?
     
    To the mold-mounded dragon | the brine-brain spake:
    "O Hermit, teach me | your grow-glossy mysteries,
    for without Wife, Mother, Daughter | my empty hearts ache.
    Where is Love’s name | writ in these trees?"
     
    And the Hermit chuckled | at the tiny octopus.
    His ragged claw jabbed | to the eight-buttress’d Tree,
    the towering spine | in bone-spiral truss,
    afloat upon the Sea: | Would you know yet more?
     
    That tortile-torture, | that peritrichous Tree;
    the serpent-ribbed spire | where the moth nests rest;
    shelter of dusk-bathed duff | and Dawn-blazon’d Canopy
    where the Hermit hoards | engravings of rust.
     
    [… … …]
     
    Then spake the dragon: | "Seek ye there.
    In the xylem sleeve | of the realiz’d seed,
    in the excision enacted, | in the labyrinthine dare,
    read your solace creed." | Would you know yet more?
     
    So up wriggled | the eager brine-brain
    from the Undercliff’d litter | of the seeping rhizosphere.
    Drove his eye-nib through | the buttress-whorl’d grain
    and squirm-blink’d in | to the xylem smear.
     
    In mannish-mutant cowl | he fervent whisper-searches
    Atmora’s crag’d and canyon’d groves. | And his spellbook sorrow
    rivets the ash-browed Nords; | binds their hearts in lurches,
    and seeds their ears to grow: | Would you know yet more?
     
    But Ysgramor’s eye | sights the scribe-scrawls
    of his charcoal men | beguil’d into prose.
    And from his drum-lungs | a tempest-ripple squalls,
    scours back the forest fiend | to the sea-garden’d grottoes.
     
    The brine-brain spake: | "Love is not writ
    in the world tree’s veins; | not the warmth of the womb
    nor the ogham-scribbles | of my word-witch’s clit
    abide in that doom ." | Would you know yet more?
     
    The wyrm-Hermit’s claw | cleaved to blacken’d bark
    split a hollow heart-scroll | and unroll’d its ring’d runes.
    The Sun dazzled down | through the lignin-letter lock,
    its cryptic-script glittered | and emboss’d the mossy dunes.
     
    Then spake the dragon: | "Her skin is the vellum
    of History’s scroll; | amber-acid the ink
    in you, the eye-nib. | The name you thrum
    is the love you drink." | Would you know yet more?
     
    "Now wield, little scribe, | this twice-nibbed quill
    on your brine-brain skin and | Her wonder-wooden flesh."
    And the Tsar of the Seas | squelched up the lenticels
    of the wyrm-wing’d Canopy, | in suckle-suckered trace.
     
    Those ring-runed words | in spiral-spined flux
    erode the starry brunt | with his black-brine whorl,
    where epochs intermingle | in the south-point dusk
    of must-mystery’s rule: | Would you know yet more?
     
    Mire-spines rattle | their shuck’d leaves in laughs
    at the gilt-stilted gleam | of his wave-wavered words.
    They conjugate consciousness | in aurgone phloem’d drafts
    and sip his mannish mien | for strange and scaled wards.
     
    And the eight suckered sac | tumbled back to the mold.
    "My words do not wind | the world to my wish;
    and mortality mocks | the script-silks I fold,"
    sorry-spake the cuttlefish: | Would you know yet more?
     
    The moss-mound stirred | with the wyrm-Hermit’s squint
    and his aperture-eye flashed | through mystery-mottled skin.
    Then spake the dragon, | "Aye, lore-bound lint;
    for love requires life | to pulse from within."
     
    Then peeled the wyrm | askew the splintered scale
    of his lichen-licked chest, | unto its heartwood hollow,
    and the cuttlefish sang | that knowledge, newborn-frail.
    "By sacrificial ultrifidy | alone does Awe grow;
    not dead-letter’d design | but imperfect translation.
    ”My time-rhymes but seed; | all else is mutation."
     
    And the dragon’s daggers | gashed and rent the sage,
    three pith-pages pulled: | the fate-triplet heart
    to the starry tree bestowed; | Infinity of each Age.
    Then rang the crux-trunk | with lurid living art;
    with textual orgy| tattoo’d in rooted rune
    and leaf-splinter’d Sun: | or both, seal’d in Love:
    for Undercliff roots | twig-tangle and croon
    with the Canopy’s stems | that prickle-pierce the duff.
     
    Then mash’d the maw | of the mossy wyrm-Hermit,
    sucked down the slit squid : | autosarcophagy incarnate.
    His spineless bulk slinks | round his wood rondelet wife;
    and the downy-trunk thrills | and shivers with strife
    as his paper pulse pounds | hidden-History to life.
    His twisted-tongue twitches | in whisper-tender drawl:
     
    "All lore lives in Love | for you, my Ogmismol."
     
    Loathe, my claws | to rife these runes
    of hermetic find | in taproot time.

    In summary, I believe Xarxes is one part the Woodland Man of Nordic belief who is seen as a Demon of Knowledge by the enemies of the elves. He is deeply rooted in the Nordic psyche and culture as a being who terrorised them in the Elder Wood of Atmora. Xarxes created a wife called Oghma who represents and embodies history in its entirety, and she can be visualised a great Tree of Life. As above, so below, trees in TES could very well be the keepers and preservers of memory by way of the water cycle, photosynthesis, and transpiration, connecting them directly with the journey of mortal souls.

    As with all things TES, though, what is more important than anything above is that which you believe.

    Thank you to everyone who commented and discussed this while it was in the Workshop, the feedback meant a lot!

    Thank you for reading.

  • July 21, 2019

    You had me hooked from the word trees, well actually Xarxes because he's one of the Aedra that I'm most interested in as one that I suppose was a little underdeveloped until Summerset (if I'm correct on that, I never remember much but there's already a lot of really interesting stuff here). I remember a few of the conversations we had about the subject of Trees back when I was working on the build, still bummed out that I never ended up putting more of it into it but I'm really interested in what your going to showcase in this article. 

    Already this has me hooked

    As I sit here in the perfection of this garden, I contemplate the Sacred Numbers that we recognize as Auspicious and critical to the existence of the universe.

    Three is the Number of the Prime Celestials, as embodied in the sun and the two moons. It is also the number of my perfect daughters, which is why we shall produce no other heirs.

    Five is the Number of the Elements, for reality consists of Earth, Air, Water, Fire, and Aether. It is also the number of books I have open upon my desk at any given time.

    Eight is the Number of the Planets, as well as the sum of three plus five. Eight is also the limit I impose when drinking glasses of Gossamer Tawny Port with the members of my philosophical society—no more and no less.

    These are the Good Numbers. And the sum of the Good Numbers, which we call Sixteen, is a very powerful number indeed.

    We must beware the Bad Number, though, for Two lacks vision and attempts to display duality, which we all know is impossible. 

    The concept of the Sacred Numbers is a really interesting way to look at the Altmeri distaste for the concept of the Nine Divines. Might not be explicity linked later on, but if 5, 3 and thus 8 are considered Sacred Numbers to the Altmer (which is an entirely fascinating thought by itself, the concept of Sacred Numbers that is) then their dislike of Talos perhaps has yet another meaning beyond just the concept of a Man ascending in the same way that they did. Very, very, very interesting. 

  • Member
    July 21, 2019

    Man, it really is fascinating. I'm not sure what I can do with the numbers as they relate to Xarxes himself because the subject of numerology and the merish regard for the number eight is a can of worms in and of itself. But there is one sort of angle I'm noodling through: In the Song of Pelinal there are references to the Ayleid obsession with that number, and that is expanded upon in the book Aurbic Enigma 4: The Elden Tree which goes into Tower lore in a big way.

    What's really compelling as it relates to Xarxes, is just how many time gods the elves have. Auriel is their supreme god of time, Xarxes records everything that happens, and Y'ffre is there too as a god of the present, the here and now. Much like Mara, Dibella, and Kynareth all share apsects of one another, the three time-gods of Auriel, Y'ffre, and Xarxes all share apsects of time. One of those being most related to the trees which, in a way, I hope to use as the natural start to talking about Oghma.

    The book has a two great sentences:

    The Boiche Elves were of the Earth Bones who most hearkened to Jephre and his greensongs. They did not build a Tower, they grew it, a great graht-oak whose roots sprang from a Perchance Acorn. And this was their Stone. And because the Acorn might perchance have been elsewhere, thus was Green-Sap manifold and several. And each could walk.

    Therefore each Green-Sap was also every Green-Sap. Within each were told all the stories of the Green, with every ending true, so doors therein were not always Doors Certain.

    And:

    As foretold by the moth-eyed, Ayleid hubris was to bear bitter fruit. With their vision on high to behold the overworlds, they failed to note the seething Nedelings at their feet, until the thralls rose up and took their Tower away from them. Chim-el-Adabal they took as well, but not before the arch-mage Anumaril fangled an eightfold Staff of Towers, each segment a semblance of a tower in its Dance. And then seven of these segments were borne by White-Gold Knights to distant Fold-Places, where they were hidden.

    (This was all unknown to Pelin-al-Essia, be certain, or there might have been a different Eight Divines!)

    Anyway, what's also interesting about those numbers is that, to the mer, Three is the number of the moons and sun, while Five is the number of the Planets. It's weird thinking of Xarxes as a planet, but there he is in cut content: "I am unable to focus.... Orgnavar blocks my attempt to harmonize with the planet Xarxes." (ESO -Alinor and Ayrenn).

    So for the elves there are Eight Divines, five of which are planets while the remaining three are the sun and moons. Xarxes is a planet, Magnus is the sun. So, out of the remaining elven gods, which two are the moons? 

    Edit: Left to go are Auriel, Trinimac, Y'ffre, Mara, Stendarr, and Syrabane.

     

  • July 21, 2019

    Man, it really is fascinating. I'm not sure what I can do with the numbers as they relate to Xarxes himself because the subject of numerology and the merish regard for the number eight is a can of worms in and of itself. But there is one sort of angle I'm noodling through: In the Song of Pelinal there are references to the Ayleid obsession with that number, and that is expanded upon in the book Aurbic Enigma 4: The Elden Tree which goes into Tower lore in a big way.

    What's really compelling as it relates to Xarxes, is just how many time gods the elves have. Auriel is their supreme god of time, Xarxes records everything that happens, and Y'ffre is there too as a god of the present, the here and now. Much like Mara, Dibella, and Kynareth all share apsects of one another, the three time-gods of Auriel, Y'ffre, and Xarxes all share apsects of time. 

    Very interesting, it almost makes it seem like you have the central figure, and then they have acolytes that just happen to be Gods. I wonder if there are any other patterns like that which emerge (Syrabane, Magnus and Xarxes have links to magic and knowledge? Syrabane, Trinimac and Xarxes as ancestor-gods? No that doesn't work as well because of Phynaster).

    The book has a two great sentences:

    The Boiche Elves were of the Earth Bones who most hearkened to Jephre and his greensongs. They did not build a Tower, they grew it, a great graht-oak whose roots sprang from a Perchance Acorn. And this was their Stone. And because the Acorn might perchance have been elsewhere, thus was Green-Sap manifold and several. And each could walk.

    Therefore each Green-Sap was also every Green-Sap. Within each were told all the stories of the Green, with every ending true, so doors therein were not always Doors Certain.

    And:

    As foretold by the moth-eyed, Ayleid hubris was to bear bitter fruit. With their vision on high to behold the overworlds, they failed to note the seething Nedelings at their feet, until the thralls rose up and took their Tower away from them. Chim-el-Adabal they took as well, but not before the arch-mage Anumaril fangled an eightfold Staff of Towers, each segment a semblance of a tower in its Dance. And then seven of these segments were borne by White-Gold Knights to distant Fold-Places, where they were hidden.

    (This was all unknown to Pelin-al-Essia, be certain, or there might have been a different Eight Divines!)

    Is any of the information in Aubric Engima 4 repeated elsewhere? The story at least is familiar though there are notes and extensions of it that I don't remember reading before. It's definitely a great look at the conceptual difference between Green-Sap and White-Gold, and really that there are differences in the conceptual identity of each of the towers. I also love the line about the mer following their own towers, it lends a bit more credence to my personal theory of the Orichalc Tower in some way now being connected to the Orsimer (not originally perhaps, but at some point each tower has been connected to one of the major races of Mer and  Orichalc is the only one left really.)

    Could be dead wrong there, probably am actually but that line about UESP from...maybe Summerset, but about Orichalc being an "ugly, sunken, long-forgotten [thing]" sort of makes me wonder if the Orcs found the Tower at some point (wasn't there a theory about Orichalc being a sword of some sort?). 

    Anyway, what's also interesting about those numbers is that, to the mer, Three is the number of the moons and sun, while Five is the number of the Planets. It's weird thinking of Xarxes as a planet, but there he is in cut content: "I am unable to focus.... Orgnavar blocks my attempt to harmonize with the planet Xarxes." (ESO -Alinor and Ayrenn).

    So for the elves there are Eight Divines, five of which are plantes while the remaining three are the sun and moons. Xarxes is a planet, Magnus is the sun. So, out of the remaining elven gods, which two are the moons? 

    Edit: Left to go are Auriel, Trinimac, Y'ffre, Mara, Stendarr, and Syrabane.

    Ooooh, that is interesting...Hmm, that's tough, I think I'm so used to connecting the moons to Lorkhan even in Altmeri religion that I can't really make an easy connection other then that. But it's fascinating to think about a little bit, do you have any thoughts on it because, yeah I keep getting stuck at Lorkhan :P

  • Member
    July 21, 2019

    Dragonborn2121 said:

    Very interesting, it almost makes it seem like you have the central figure, and then they have acolytes that just happen to be Gods. I wonder if there are any other patterns like that which emerge (Syrabane, Magnus and Xarxes have links to magic and knowledge? Syrabane, Trinimac and Xarxes as ancestor-gods? No that doesn't work as well because of Phynaster)

    Patterns in TES are great fun. I think you possibly discount Phynaster. Syrabane, Magnus and Xarxes have spheres in common, whjle Phynaster was a mortal who ascended rather than an et'ada, so sort of joins as a captured satelite. We could think of it like a plantery stsytem like Kyne. Orbitting the Kyne planet is Mara, a smaller planet. Orbitting Mara is an even smaller planet called Dibella. Maybe a powerful follower of any of these goddesses can join them as satelites or small moons orbitting their heavenly body. Maybe :D

    The way I see it is like a great big shatter, like I picture Anuiel in this cosmic cathedral. All is still and quiet within this force of stasis. Anuiel thinks long and hard, and realises he needs somthing else in order to know himself. So Auriel/Akatosh comes from that thought, and there's a pause before he shouts I AM! Followed by I AM NOT! The stained glass windows of the universe blow outwards in that moment along with Time and Space. There are pieces of the glass wimndows floating around, some are larger than others and some line up very well with each other. We can see Y'ffre there very close to a stained-glass Kyne, who is floating very close to a Hircine-like image etc...

    It may not be entirely accurate, but it's a fun mental image.

    Dragonborn2121 said:

    Is any of the information in Aubric Engima 4 repeated elsewhere? The story at least is familiar though there are notes and extensions of it that I don't remember reading before. It's definitely a great look at the conceptual difference between Green-Sap and White-Gold, and really that there are differences in the conceptual identity of each of the towers. I also love the line about the mer following their own towers, it lends a bit more credence to my personal theory of the Orichalc Tower in some way now being connected to the Orsimer (not originally perhaps, but at some point each tower has been connected to one of the major races of Mer and  Orichalc is the only one left really.)

    Could be dead wrong there, probably am actually but that line about UESP from...maybe Summerset, but about Orichalc being an "ugly, sunken, long-forgotten [thing]" sort of makes me wonder if the Orcs found the Tower at some point (wasn't there a theory about Orichalc being a sword of some sort?).

    It could just be long familiarity. I mean, nowadays it's hard to keep track of what we didn't know even when Skyrim came out. Back then the idea of Kalpas cropped up but once in the Song of Pelinal and the idea of Towers was firmly in the realms quasi-lore. Eyes would roll back then because we had to delve into OOG sources for pretty much everything. Skyrim came out and gave us so much new stuff we now take for granted, yet a lot was still mystery. Then ESO shook the lore tree and we saw so much tower lore fall, such as Orichalc in that quote. That's fairly new, arrived with the Augur of the Obscure in Summerset's Psijic Order questline which has us recovering each piece of the Staff of Towers.

    And I think you're right, there's an Orcish thing going on there. It could be another case of guess the pan-cultural god. Orichalc was a Yoku god and associated with the HoonDing, right? HoonDing has very strong parallels with more familar heros, such as the Dragonborn, Talos, etc... someone who manifests at the right time and place. The stone of orichalc was sword. Trinimac's sword is legendary, it's his symbol and called Penitent. He slew Lorkhan and became Malacath. Plus, throughout history there is that cultural theme shared by Redguards and Orcs. As we've seen, cultural versions of gods can be radically different from each other yet still be the same god. Wyho knows? Maybe in a few years with TES VI we'll know the answer!

    Dragonborn2121 said:[/b

    Ooooh, that is interesting...Hmm, that's tough, I think I'm so used to connecting the moons to Lorkhan even in Altmeri religion that I can't really make an easy connection other then that. But it's fascinating to think about a little bit, do you have any thoughts on it because, yeah I keep getting stuck at Lorkhan :P

    As much as the elves want to deny it, Lorkhan is Auriel. So he could be one of the moons, maybe? Y'ffre as the other due to their link as dragon gods? I don't know to be sure, but it's interesting just because it makes us rethink. It's easy to become complacent with lore and see one truth above all others - like the whole flesh divinity legend. This sort of thing reminds us of other pserspectives and becomes a creative licence in a lot of ways. The Khajiit don't see Lorkhan in those two moons, they see the Aldmeric Jone and Jode - who are conspicuously absent in Altmer mythology. Could be that Jone and Jode are there, just under different names xD

  • July 21, 2019

    Patterns in TES are great fun. I think you possibly discount Phynaster. Syrabane, Magnus and Xarxes have spheres in common, whjle Phynaster was a mortal who ascended rather than an et'ada, so sort of joins as a captured satelite. We could think of it like a plantery stsytem like Kyne. Orbitting the Kyne planet is Mara, a smaller planet. Orbitting Mara is an even smaller planet called Dibella. Maybe a powerful follower of any of these goddesses can join them as satelites or small moons orbitting their heavenly body. Maybe :D

    The way I see it is like a great big shatter, like I picture Anuiel in this cosmic cathedral. All is still and quiet within this force of stasis. Anuiel thinks long and hard, and realises he needs somthing else in order to know himself. So Auriel/Akatosh comes from that thought, and there's a pause before he shouts I AM! Followed by I AM NOT! The stained glass windows of the universe blow outwards in that moment along with Time and Space. There are pieces of the glass wimndows floating around, some are larger than others and some line up very well with each other. We can see Y'ffre there very close to a stained-glass Kyne, who is floating very close to a Hircine-like image etc...

    It may not be entirely accurate, but it's a fun mental image.

    It's an interesting thought, well a series of interesting thoughts that build upon themselves and become more interesting :P I like the concepts, my own mental image is a bit different, more spherical in nature with everyone being their own little sphere, so they all end up creating a bit of a super-complicated Venn Diagram of stupid proportions. Like the sphere that is Kyne connects in some ways with the sphere that is Hircine but in others connects to the sphere that is Y'ffre. Maybe then Y'ffre's sphere connects to Auri-El and Xarxes whose spheres bleed over with other deities and concepts. They're all linked, but at the same time seperate enough to be distinct shapes with their own colours so you can tell whose who. Maybe a bit strange, but I think it sort of explains things like Auri-El and Akatosh, there spheres might basically overlap but Auri-El is White-Gold while Akatosh is Red-Gold. They're the same, but also different. 

    Dunno, it's obviously very different from your picture, but it's how I make sense of things and see the connections between everything sometimes. 

    It could just be long familiarity. I mean, nowadays it's hard to keep track of what we didn't know even when Skyrim came out. Back then the idea of Kalpas cropped up but once in the Song of Pelinal and the idea of Towers was firmly in the realms quasi-lore. Eyes would roll back then because we had to delve into OOG sources for pretty much everything. Skyrim came out and gave us so much new stuff we now take for granted, yet a lot was still mystery. Then ESO shook the lore tree and we saw so much tower lore fall, such as Orichalc in that quote. That's fairly new, arrived with the Augur of the Obscure in Summerset's Psijic Order questline which has us recovering each piece of the Staff of Towers.

    That's true, and it's also hard because some stuff that used to be OOG is now sort of intrinsically linked with new cannon because it turns out that maybe, just maybe MK had a bunch of good ideas and we should bring them in. I still remember the days where we could reasonbly debate that almost all aspects of the Towers were OOG, now so much of that is fully brought into ESO and expanded on with new fully cannon lore. It's sort of rounded everything out a bit more you know, we can more easily talk about Green-Sap as something a bit more than what it once was, and we've actually seen almost all of the Towers (Oricalc and Adamantium are pretty much the only ones we haven't seen in a game aren't they?). 

    And I think you're right, there's an Orcish thing going on there. It could be another case of guess the pan-cultural god. Orichalc was a Yoku god and associated with the HoonDing, right? HoonDing has very strong parallels with more familar heros, such as the Dragonborn, Talos, etc... someone who manifests at the right time and place. The stone of orichalc was sword. Trinimac's sword is legendary, it's his symbol and called Penitent. He slew Lorkhan and became Malacath. Plus, throughout history there is that cultural theme shared by Redguards and Orcs. As we've seen, cultural versions of gods can be radically different from each other yet still be the same god. Wyho knows? Maybe in a few years with TES VI we'll know the answer!

    I mean, I think regardless of where it's located TES 6 is going to have to bring in another tower (logic dictates that afterall), though my heart tells me that as soon as know which province it's set in we'll know what Tower is going to be focused on. 

    As much as the elves want to deny it, Lorkhan is Auriel. So he could be one of the moons, maybe? Y'ffre as the other due to their link as dragon gods? I don't know to be sure, but it's interesting just because it makes us rethink. It's easy to become complacent with lore and see one truth above all others - like the whole flesh divinity legend. This sort of thing reminds us of other pserspectives and becomes a creative licence in a lot of ways. The Khajiit don't see Lorkhan in those two moons, they see the Aldmeric Jone and Jode - who are conspicuously absent in Altmer mythology. Could be that Jone and Jode are there, just under different names xD

    Probably the most fitting unless we learn more about the others or I don't know enough about how Mara is viewed by the Altmer, which I guess might be dramatically different enough to bring some Moons stuff in. Probably not, because you know that wouldn't make much sense...Wait a minute, let me just. Okay so actually yeah Mara might make sense just a wee little bit. Mara's Tear and of course this line from the Bosmer, Breton and Altmer Varities of the Faith

    Nearly universal goddess. Origins started in mythic times as a fertility goddess. She is sometimes associated with Nir of the "Anuad," the female principle of the cosmos that gave birth to creation. For the Bosmer/Breton/Altmer, she is the wife of Auri-El.

    But yeah, basically there are connections between Mara and the Moons, so maybe Auri-El and Mara are the two moons? 

     

     

  • Member
    July 21, 2019

    Dragonborn2121 said:

    It's an interesting thought, well a series of interesting thoughts that build upon themselves and become more interesting :P I like the concepts, my own mental image is a bit different, more spherical in nature with everyone being their own little sphere, so they all end up creating a bit of a super-complicated Venn Diagram of stupid proportions. Like the sphere that is Kyne connects in some ways with the sphere that is Hircine but in others connects to the sphere that is Y'ffre. Maybe then Y'ffre's sphere connects to Auri-El and Xarxes whose spheres bleed over with other deities and concepts. They're all linked, but at the same time seperate enough to be distinct shapes with their own colours so you can tell whose who. Maybe a bit strange, but I think it sort of explains things like Auri-El and Akatosh, there spheres might basically overlap but Auri-El is White-Gold while Akatosh is Red-Gold. They're the same, but also different.

    I think that works nicely. There really shouldn't be one best way of visualising it, as long as the overlap between different dieties is seen. More on that sort of thing with Mara below.

    Dragonborn2121 said:[/b

    That's true, and it's also hard because some stuff that used to be OOG is now sort of intrinsically linked with new cannon because it turns out that maybe, just maybe MK had a bunch of good ideas and we should bring them in. I still remember the days where we could reasonbly debate that almost all aspects of the Towers were OOG, now so much of that is fully brought into ESO and expanded on with new fully cannon lore. It's sort of rounded everything out a bit more you know, we can more easily talk about Green-Sap as something a bit more than what it once was, and we've actually seen almost all of the Towers (Oricalc and Adamantium are pretty much the only ones we haven't seen in a game aren't they?).

    It helps that Kirkbride and Kuhlmann were brothers in crime and joined the team at pretty much the same time when they showed their ideas. So they worked together before and during Morrowind, presumably remaining friends after. As long as Kuhlmann remains at Bethesda, some of their shared ideas will always be present. 

    Dragonborn2121 said:[/b

    Probably the most fitting unless we learn more about the others or I don't know enough about how Mara is viewed by the Altmer, which I guess might be dramatically different enough to bring some Moons stuff in. Probably not, because you know that wouldn't make much sense...Wait a minute, let me just. Okay so actually yeah Mara might make sense just a wee little bit. Mara's Tear and of course this line from the Bosmer, Breton and Altmer Varities of the Faith

    Nearly universal goddess. Origins started in mythic times as a fertility goddess. She is sometimes associated with Nir of the "Anuad," the female principle of the cosmos that gave birth to creation. For the Bosmer/Breton/Altmer, she is the wife of Auri-El.

    But yeah, basically there are connections between Mara and the Moons, so maybe Auri-El and Mara are the two moons?

    I suppose the biggest thing we learned about Mara in Summerset came from Archon's Grove. The loading screen blurb says:

    "Archon's Grove? Indeed, that's the site where the legendary poet Nenamil, Archon of Song, discovered and named the Rose-of-Archon, the flower precious to the Goddess Mara. It's said to be southwest of Shimmerene somewhere."—Innkeeper Vintenwen

    As part of a daily quest, we get to ask Justiciar Tanorian about the poet Nenamil:

    Dibella is absent from the Altmer pantheon, but Mara seems to have absorbed her sphere, or at least a great portion of it. So in your Venn diagram, we can imagine Mara and Dibella there but with such a huge overlap to the point where the two circles almost entirely touch at the circumference.

  • July 21, 2019

    I think that works nicely. There really shouldn't be one best way of visualising it, as long as the overlap between different dieties is seen. More on that sort of thing with Mara below.

    It helps that Kirkbride and Kuhlmann were brothers in crime and joined the team at pretty much the same time when they showed their ideas. So they worked together before and during Morrowind, presumably remaining friends after. As long as Kuhlmann remains at Bethesda, some of their shared ideas will always be present.

    Fair point, and to be honest I think as time goes on MK seems to be more well recieved by the fans. I'm not terribly active anywhere but here when it comes to Lore (other than reading through UESP and Imperial Library, and the occasional appearence in r/teslore) but it seems like, the idea of just discarding everything he wrote that wasn't then put into the games, there's a bit of a... higher allowance for his ideas, though maybe that's only because they're adding more of his ideas into main content.

     I suppose the biggest thing we learned about Mara in Summerset came from Archon's Grove. The loading screen blurb says:

    "Archon's Grove? Indeed, that's the site where the legendary poet Nenamil, Archon of Song, discovered and named the Rose-of-Archon, the flower precious to the Goddess Mara. It's said to be southwest of Shimmerene somewhere."—Innkeeper Vintenwen

    As part of a daily quest, we get to ask Justiciar Tanorian about the poet Nenamil:

    Dibella is absent from the Altmer pantheon, but Mara seems to have absorbed her sphere, or at least a great portion of it. So in your Venn diagram, we can imagine Mara and Dibella there but with such a huge overlap to the point where the two circles almost entirely touch at the circumference.

    Hmm, so there's a bit more of a conceptual side to Mara? Usually I see here as one of the more grounded deities but Altmer almost capitalize Beauty (if that makes any sense...). But yeah, interesting to see the overlap with Dibella, or the evisceration of Dibella as a deity and the pure focus on Mara, doubly so because there doesn't seem to be any 'Mother' figure other than Mara in Altmeri worship. 

     

  • July 21, 2019

    I think that works nicely. There really shouldn't be one best way of visualising it, as long as the overlap between different dieties is seen. More on that sort of thing with Mara below.

    It helps that Kirkbride and Kuhlmann were brothers in crime and joined the team at pretty much the same time when they showed their ideas. So they worked together before and during Morrowind, presumably remaining friends after. As long as Kuhlmann remains at Bethesda, some of their shared ideas will always be present.

    Fair point, and to be honest I think as time goes on MK seems to be more well recieved by the fans. I'm not terribly active anywhere but here when it comes to Lore (other than reading through UESP and Imperial Library, and the occasional appearence in r/teslore) but it seems like, the idea of just discarding everything he wrote that wasn't then put into the games, there's a bit of a... higher allowance for his ideas, though maybe that's only because they're adding more of his ideas into main content.

     I suppose the biggest thing we learned about Mara in Summerset came from Archon's Grove. The loading screen blurb says:

    "Archon's Grove? Indeed, that's the site where the legendary poet Nenamil, Archon of Song, discovered and named the Rose-of-Archon, the flower precious to the Goddess Mara. It's said to be southwest of Shimmerene somewhere."—Innkeeper Vintenwen

    As part of a daily quest, we get to ask Justiciar Tanorian about the poet Nenamil:

    Dibella is absent from the Altmer pantheon, but Mara seems to have absorbed her sphere, or at least a great portion of it. So in your Venn diagram, we can imagine Mara and Dibella there but with such a huge overlap to the point where the two circles almost entirely touch at the circumference.

    Hmm, so there's a bit more of a conceptual side to Mara? Usually I see here as one of the more grounded deities but Altmer almost capitalize Beauty (if that makes any sense...). But yeah, interesting to see the overlap with Dibella, or the evisceration of Dibella as a deity and the pure focus on Mara, doubly so because there doesn't seem to be any 'Mother' figure other than Mara in Altmeri worship. 

  • Member
    July 22, 2019

    Dragonborn2121 said:

    Fair point, and to be honest I think as time goes on MK seems to be more well recieved by the fans. I'm not terribly active anywhere but here when it comes to Lore (other than reading through UESP and Imperial Library, and the occasional appearence in r/teslore) but it seems like, the idea of just discarding everything he wrote that wasn't then put into the games, there's a bit of a... higher allowance for his ideas, though maybe that's only because they're adding more of his ideas into main content.

    You know I think that's right. Man, a few years ago it was like walking on eggshells  mentioning MK or OOG sources. That could have been around the time he was quite active on the forums and there was a sort of backlash. Trouble is with those days prior to ESO was OOG sources were the only way of getting new lore, and MK was the most active source. ESO came along and removed the need due to sheer wealth of new sttuff it brought with it in an evolving fashion, and a lot of that backed up previously dubious OOG sources - such as Imperial Census of Daedra Lords which, up until then, was firmly in the "non-Canon" zone. So I think now there is a trend towards acceptance of a lot of stuff previously dismissed.

     

    Dragonborn2121 said:

    Hmm, so there's a bit more of a conceptual side to Mara? Usually I see here as one of the more grounded deities but Altmer almost capitalize Beauty (if that makes any sense...). But yeah, interesting to see the overlap with Dibella, or the evisceration of Dibella as a deity and the pure focus on Mara, doubly so because there doesn't seem to be any 'Mother' figure other than Mara in Altmeri worship. 

    Evisceration of Dibella. I like that phrase! The Altmeri pantheon is predominantly male, with Mara being the sole goddes and almost relegated to "just the wife of Auriel" position. Being the only goddess must be a lot of weight for one goddess to carry in that she needs to embody every aspect of femininity. I know I made a big deal at the time of Syrabane being referred to as a goddess, but I think that's only by one NPC next to one statue. I think there are one or two sources calling Y'ffre a goddess, too, but by and large most sources have these deities firmly male.