Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


The Tenth Totem

  • July 9, 2018

    I have a theory, and I wanted to make a build from it, but I need help to reflect on it and flesh it out. :)

    Yngol Barrow, like many others, has a puzzle involving Atmoran totems. Uniquely to Yngol Barrow, 'man' features amoung the totems as part of the puzzle.

    Man on his throne

    So should he be.

    Now Yngol Barrow must be the earliest Atmoran/Nordic barrow on Skyrim, since Yngol was Ysgrammor's son. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

    I wondered if it in fact predated the Dragon Cult, and reflected an earlier version of the Nordic faith, in which man was a 'tenth totem', both connected to and ruling the other nine. When the Dragon Cult took hold, this totem would have been surpressed and forgotten, as it speaks of man's supremacy - a heresy to a cult which put the Dragons in first place. Hence, it features nowhere else.

    Is this plausible? What might have been the old role of Dragons in an Atmoran society where the Dragon Cult did not dominate? Why was the Tenth Totem not recovered by the heroes who finally defeated Alduin? What might a recovery of this totem look like?

  • July 9, 2018

    First barrow in Skyrim. Hmm. That is tricky... Because this is after Saarthal and Ysgramor sailing back to Atmora to grab his Five Hundred gangbangers to beat some crap out of Elves back in Skyrim. That means that Atmorans have been in Skyrim and I would find it hard to believe no one has died in there during their stay - but the time is sketchy here, the sources mostly say that Saarthal was massacred by Elves shortly after it was founded/settled. And Yngol died during the voyage back to Tamriel, I think he crashed the ship on the beach. So in my opinion, not the first barrow but maybe the first big one? Tough to say.

    As for the Dragon Cult and Atmorans. We actually kinda have the answer for that.

    Foremost among all animals was the dragon. In the ancient nordic tongue it was drah-gkon. Occasionally the term dov-rha is used, but the language or derivation of that is not known. Using either name was forbidden to all except the dragon priests. Grand temples were built to honor the dragons and appease them. Many of them survive today as ancient ruins haunted by draugr and undead dragon priests.

     

    In Atmora, where Ysgramor and his people came from, the dragon priests demanded tribute and set down laws and codes of living that kept peace between dragons and men. In Tamriel, they were not nearly as benevolent. It's unclear if this was due to an ambitious dragon priest, or a particular dragon, or a series of weak kings. Whatever the cause, the dragon priests began to rule with an iron fist, making virtual slaves of the rest of the population. - Dragon War

    I think we might have to look for a bit different angle with the Man Totem. Hmm. In the puzzle, that totem is put above all others, right? I don't know. Maybe in Ysgramor's eyes his son was above the gods they worshipped? Kinda. Subjective perception on feelings is always kinda tough to draw into Lore, but...yeah. Any other angle we could take? 

  • July 9, 2018
    I like the idea about Ysgramor idealising his son. That feels like a powerful story, especially if Yngol died too young to fulfil his promise. Perhaps the author of the Dragon War, who was writing much later, didn't have the whole picture. Maybe Ysgramor and his bunch were in fact sort of heretics, wishing to enthrone man, and Yngols death put an end to their hopes and turned many of them back to an even more conservative version of the dragon cult as life in Skyrim proved difficult. I find it difficult to reconcile the 'nords as proud warriors' history with them being so subjugated by the dragon priests. Theres clearly a deep taproot of arrogance in Nord culture that comes from somewhere at least as far back as Ysgrammors conquests. The idea that 'actually, no, we dont have to pay tribute to these things, we are better than them and we can beat them', is an old idea with a deep history...i think thats kind of of what im driving at.
  • July 9, 2018

    Absolutely. I mean, every historical book has to be taken with a grain of salt, especially one that talks about later Merethic Era/very early First Era. As for the subjugation part, look at the Dragon Wars again. At Atmora, the priests and everyone be cool. But it was later, after they settled in Skyrim when the priests and dragons started to really enslave the proto-Nords.

    Unless of course you´d rather like to go with the Atmorans pulling off a runner from Atmora specificaly because of the Dragon Cult.

  • July 9, 2018
    Sounds like a very cool idea for a build. Yngol Barrow is my favorite place in Skyrim. I always keep at least one save game so I can go back in whenever I want. The quiet and calm and glow. And I LOVE that poem puzzle. So, so cool. I would look forward reading a build based on any aspect of this.
  • July 9, 2018

    ilanisilver said: Sounds like a very cool idea for a build. Yngol Barrow is my favorite place in Skyrim. I always keep at least one save game so I can go back in whenever I want. The quiet and calm and glow. And I LOVE that poem puzzle. So, so cool. I would look forward reading a build based on any aspect of this.

    My Outsider delves into the history of Ysgramor and the 500 hundred and the Helm of Yngol is considered a special artifact in the build. 

    Did you know Yngol was a smith? He made Wuuthrad for his father after the sacking of Saarthal by the Elves. I quote passages from Songs of the Return in it. It is some of the prettiest prose in Tamriel literature. Lots of embracing and it's really quite moving. You can definitely tell father and son were close. 

    "So great was the grief of the Harbinger that, instead of salty sorrow, Ysgramor wept tears of purest ebony. His eldest, Yngol, collected the tears in a stein and held his father in a warm embrace. He poured mead down the Harbinger's great throat, wrapped furs around the Harbinger's great shoulders, and slung the Harbinger into a great hammock below decks.

    Then he set to work. For Yngol, eldest son to the Harbinger of us all, was the greatest smith our people have ever known. There, on the sea, Yngol set to work with his tools. He used lightning to heat the Night's Tears, the ocean's swell to cool them, and always his hammer-blows rang in concert with the rising wind.

    When Ysgramor awoke the next morning, Yngol presented him with a mighty axe, hewn from the sorrow that had laid him low just the night before. And the Harbinger of us all embraced his son. He cried out in joy, sadness, and rage. And there on the deck of the last ship from Saarthal, Ysgramor named his Axe Wuuthrad, which means "Storm's Tears in the language of Atmora.

  • July 9, 2018
    There’s just something magical about it, right? And I’m not talking magical in the literal sense, although there is that. But like, a spiritual level. One of my favorite things in game is reconciling the outward brutality and brusqueness of the Nords with their soft, sensitive side. Warrior poets? Amazing. And when you kill Kodlak’s Wolf spirit, how Vilkas -VILKAS- waxes poetic about seeing the love Kodlak had for you, the Dragonborn... love it. And it’s that way throughout history. The fiercest warriors sometimes were the ones most in touch with life and love, flaws and all. Maybe they had to be, given how short their paths in the world could be.
  • July 9, 2018

    My Outsider delves into the history of Ysgramor and the 500 hundred and the Helm of Yngol is considered a special artifact in the build.

    I'm gonna go away and read that. I also need to read up on the draugr. How can someone be in Sovengard and also be a draugr? What is all that about.

    Ilani, yes, it's a very haunting place. I think there's something about the Nords overall that speaks of the best and worst in humankind. Violent, impulsive, but capeable of great love, honour and sacrifice. Now Dragons (as Paarthurnax admits) are much more one dimentional. They dominate. They don't put themselves on the line for each other. Maybe that's why Men ultimately come to rule, and that's a truth that Ysgrammor began to understand as he looked at his son. Maybe that puzzle is not so much a relic as a prophecy.

  • July 10, 2018

    Plunders-The-Mountains said:

     Maybe that puzzle is not so much a relic as a prophecy.

    Or a wishful thinking. :)

    Plunders-The-Mountains said:

     How can someone be in Sovengard and also be a draugr? What is all that about.

    Okay, this topic. Gah, I have to admit it I sorta dislike this topic because it always leads down a bloody rabbit hole I just fear to explore. But before I start spewing mindfucks you look at this, it´s pretty good book on Draugr and Dragon Priests. It is basicaly a researcher theorizing, but it be good. Amongst the Draugr

    As of Draugr being in Sovngarde and being Draugr/undead... Well, two possible explanation. One is that they are not in Sovngarde.

    Second. Well, that´s the more complicated one. We usually had this kind of discussion in Enchanting topics, but oh well. Basicaly, there is a theory that Soul is made of two parts. Like, when you Soul trap someone you trap the soul´s energy while the soul itself travels where it is destined to. Same has been theorized about reanimation. Like, you can raise just the body or you can bring soul - or at least part of it - back to the body and trap it there. Well, I think it might be better for you to look at the articles actually.

    Two Parts of a Whole Make a Soul

    On Magicka, the Soul, Draugr and Their Relation

    And who knows, maybe you´ll find Necromancy: The Great Debate useful too.