Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Monthly Lore discussion: A gathering of Explorers

Tags: #Teineeva  #Monthly Lore Discussion  #Expeditions Committee 
  • Member
    February 20, 2018

    Welcome to a bit of a trial discussion this time. And yes, I am aware that these have become less and less "monthly" as we've gone on with them but well... Too bad, I'm a solo host and my schedule sometimes gets a bit rough :P

    For this edition of the official discussion, we'll take up some of the questions asked in the Expeditions Committee that so far no one has decided to pick up yet. I know that to many the sudden change of directly answered questions to having to wait for someone to make an article for you has been ever so slightly daunting to many and I can understand that. It has been an odd change for me as well and I'm constantly thinking of improvements to that system. In the meantime, however, we're ending up with a lot of unanswered questions and I believe it would be a good idea to discuss some of the older ones for the next few weeks. If anything the ideas we share here might just spark the inspiration you need to write the full article.

    For this I've chosen the following questions, I won't remove them from the board just yet as I hope one of you guys will pick up the torch once we've gotten into the depth of the subject and given you a few ideas as to how to answer the commission.

    • What do we know about the Khajit martial arts? Where did they train, what philosophy do they follow.. Etc.
    • What are the general differences in biology between the races of mer and men beyond the obvious (e.g pointed ears, different skin tones)?
    • How is Spellmaking explained in the lore?

    For now, let's start off with these and if we run out of subjects anytime soon I'll add some more. Pick a question and start a discussion people!

     

  • Member
    February 21, 2018

    I'm not sure what this is, but I'll give Khajiiti martial arts a look-in-to, seems interesting. Could link it in with my story, maybe?

  • Member
    February 21, 2018

    Wulfhedinn said:

    I'm not sure what this is, but I'll give Khajiiti martial arts a look-in-to, seems interesting. Could link it in with my story, maybe?

    The point here is to simply discuss any findings you may have regarding the subject and see what other ideas people have on them. Anyway, if Khajiti martial art is how you would like to start off, let's get to it. :)

    I haven't actually looked into it a whole lot but came across some martial arts related stuff back when I was hoping to make an article on Kenarthi's roost and the Khajiti living there. There were a few things that jumped out at me, the first being the temple of two moons dance and the followers of the Riddle'thar who train there. It was at times a bit difficult to distinguish between the religious paths and oath these people follow and their martial prowess but from what I gathered those that complete the training are near invincible in unarmed combat. To be honest, I didn't look into it very deeply but what I got from the trainer there; a certain Inisashu-Jo who as his name suggests appeared rather wise.

    When asked about the Riddle'Thar he responds by saying:

    The way. The path. the road. Riddle'Thar is all of these, and none. For one, the road is a wall. For another, a wall the way. We all seek our place in ja-Kha'jay. Riddle'thar helps us find it.

    When you ask him what the flipping hell ja-Kha'jay means, he says the following:

    Ja-Kha'jay. It is what we all hope to achieve; the Lunar Lattice, where all fates are bound. Our place in the universe. For the Khajit, anyway.

    The vestige can then ask him if he is referring to the afterlife. He laughs and continues:

    Ha! One should hope not! If we are lucky, we reach ja-Kha'jay long before then! Otherwise, what is the point, yes? It is different for everyone. For some, it is to become King and rule over the little people, yes? Ha! We should all be so lucky! For others, it is death. You have some experience with this, no?

    He then goes on a tangent regarding the vestige's missing soul and calls it "your sugar". Which would lead to all kinds of odd interpretations of Khajitti customs. Anyway, after that, you can ask him to continue on about the Riddle'Thar and he happily complies.

    In the way one follows a map through a maze, one follows Riddle'Thar through Life. It teaches us to avoid -and embrace- danger. To fight and to run away. To accept change and to stave it off.

    That last bit is especially interesting to me as it sheds light on the khajitti approach to life. Where the Argonians follow the flow of change to the point of worshipping Sithis as its incarnation (and living in mud huts because mud is evermoving), and Men and Mer use chaos to attain a fleeting sense of order (often ridiculed for it by the argonians btw), the Khajitti learn when to accept or to refuse change. Which to me actually sounds like the more mentally sane fo the three but whatever.

    Anyway, the vestige can then ask how one finds their way out of the maze.

    A maze contains many things, not simply a way out. the best mazes hide many sweets behind traps and crevices. Riddle'Thar is not so much a way out of the maze as the way with the most sweets along the way. At the end of the path is ja-Kha'jay.

    So besides the obvious parallels to destiny and the idea of pushing and pulling change like the Moons push and pull the tides, there's probably a lot of cool tidbits for you guys to work with s, for now, I'm just going to move onto the screenshots.

    As the massive culture loving lore-buff that I am I will not spend any time in ESO not looking at the architecture. One thing I noticed in the temple of Riddle'thar was a series of etchings on the side of the buildings depicting what I think are martial arts movements or some kind of dance. I'll have you guys decide for yourselves:

    Later in Khenarthi's roost, we can even come across someone who seems to have studied Riddle'thar which is the second point I wanted to get to. A kahjitti woman named Zulana. You help her son kill his skooma trafficking dad in a hidden port east of Mistral. She gives you a few more details on what is taught at two moons dance:

    What stood out to me here is the use of the phrase "Ahzirr traajijazeri" that is most often associated with the Renjira Krin; a group of lowlifes, pirates, general scum etc in the second era and a group of resistance fighters near Leyawiin in the third era. It's just a minor detail but something interesting nonetheless.

  • Member
    February 21, 2018

    It seems to me as if the monks take martial arts hand in hand with Religion, which is quite ineresting because a lot of religion essentially forbids combat, no? That specific part was, yeah, really interesting. I would write more, but I am in dire need of sleep. I've finally decided on my saga and its almost ready to come out :P

  • Member
    February 21, 2018

    Wulfhedinn said:

    It seems to me as if the monks take martial arts hand in hand with Religion, which is quite ineresting because a lot of religion essentially forbids combat, no? That specific part was, yeah, really interesting. I would write more, but I am in dire need of sleep. I've finally decided on my saga and its almost ready to come out :P

    That is actually interesting to mention Wulf. I think that may have to do with their push and pull mentality. If you can't defend yourself how will you refuse the flow of change? Not to forget that Khajitti society seems somewhat inspired by the far east (Architecturally mostly indonesian, vietnamese and hints of hindu? no clue as to where the Riddle'thar comes from) and their martial arts, a lot of these schools of thought believe that a healthy mind can only reside in a healthy body and as we all know exercise plays a big role in the latter.

  • Member
    February 21, 2018

    I do Tae Kwon Do, and it's quite strange. I would like to learn whether or not their martial arts are aggressive in nature or mainly self-preservational, y'know, self defence or that kind of thing. Regardless, I really need some sleep now, so I bid you farewell!

  • February 21, 2018
    • How is Spellmaking explained in the lore?

    Okay, spellmaking. I would say it's actually more about how the spellmaking isn't explained in the Lore. The gameplay in this argument is sometimes helpful and sometimes it isn't, but I will start with this. Magic in TES is science. So let's forget about Spellmaking altars and such things for a moment and ponder the fact that science isn't simple. Nothing ever invented happened over night, right? Take fire - or heat  - for example. There have been many scientifical discoveries since the day we have figured how to make fire and use it to our advantage in some prehistoric cave up to this day where we can convert heat into energy for example, and we can apply this to the TES too, more or less. Every spell we know has been invented by someone, figured out how to control the stuff of creation we call Magicka and give it a certain shape.

    Just look at Response to Bero's Speech:

    Allow me in response to list the factors studied in the School of Destruction. The means of delivering the spell matters more in the School of Destruction than any other school, whether it is cast at a touch, at a range, in concentric circles, or cast once to be triggered later. What forces must be reigned in to cast the spell: fire, lightning, or frost? And what are the advantages and dangers of each? What are the responses from different targets from the assault of different spells of destruction? What are the possible defenses and how may they be assailed? What environmental factors must be taken into consideration? What are the advantages of a spell of delayed damage? Bero suggests that the School of Destruction cannot be subtle, yet he forgets about all the Curses that fall under the mantle of the school, sometimes affecting generation after generation in subtle yet sublime ways.

    All this isn't something you just cook at your local Spellmaking altar. Look at all the stuff the guy talks about, the ways you can cast a spell. At a touch, at a range, in concentric circles, to be triggered later. But let's take it up another level and generalize the spell variables that can be manipulated. 

    • Effect
    • Shape
    • Radius
    • Magnitude
    • Duration

    All this variables can be manipulated with. Skyrim has probably the best example of all the games in this moment, namely the Destruction spells. Look at the fire spells for example. What is there? A column of flames, firebolt, fireball, wall of flames, flame cloak, inferno. How are all these different? Well, they are all the same spell, aren't they? A fire spell, but the thing is that each most likely requires a different technique to cast it, different variables. 

    How is fireball different from a firebolt? They both start the same, with the same Shape, but when the fireball hits something, the Effect is suddenly something completely different, in both Radius and Magnitude in comparison to firebolt. And all this can be applied to every spell, which was most likely invented by someone who probably wrote a book about it or passed it down to his apprentice, thus spreading the knowledge. 

    Back in Morrowind and Oblivion - or even Daggerfall - there were named spells like Baronoff's Bloody Icicle or Finger of the Mountain, and each of them was invented by someone. You could think that when you learn them in games you are being taught a certain technique how to do that. 

    With all this taken in mind, especially the fire spells of Skyrim I mentioned, don't think for a moment that all that is fixed. Who says that maybe there will be a mage who figures out how to create a sword of pure fire in hand? Or that someone hasn't already invented Wards being cast in distance? 

    It's the stuff of creation, it's like researching atoms, only there everything's possible. It just needs to be researched and invented. 

    Now I could mention that the Schools of Magic are in reality only artificial constructs for easier understanding, that in reality magic is just magic, Destruction and Restoration are only names and categorizations. Everything comes from the same place, ale the spells just have different effects, shape, radius, magnitude and duration which can be tampered with by people clever enough to fiddle around with the creatia. 

  • February 21, 2018

    While I did write up a series of Apocryphal articles about the three Khajiiti claw-based martial arts, I'm going to try not refer to them here since, well, Apocrypha.

    I will, however, draw some parallels between actual martial arts and the depictions we see on the etchings in the Temple. All etchings show the hands and arms positioned in front of and to the sides of the upper torso in what appears to be basic defensive stances. The position of the legs is also noteworthy. In the first and third etching, the Khajiit appears to be in the 'universal' martial arts beginning stance - and I do mean universal; almost every martial art, from Wing Chun and Tai Chi Chuan to Western boxing and Muay Thai, make use of some variation of this stance - knees slightly bent, legs and feet separated at roughly shoulder-width, centre of gravity low, hands raised and close to the upper body to protect vital areas.

    The second etching is where I really went nuts with the parallels.

    Take a look at the Khajiit's stance here:

    Now take a look at this:

     

    This set of images depicts the footwork and palm techniques of Baguazhang, or the Eight Trigram Palm. This Chinese martial art places heavy emphasis on the usage of palm strikes alongwith circular, horizontal motions to control the flow of combat. Now, I am by no means an expert, but I did have some chances to observe Baguazhang practitioners when I was in secondary school... mostly during the times our kendo team got lazy and quit practice ahead of the other school clubs. The position of the Khajiit's pelvis is what immediately caught my attention, followed soon after by the position of the hands and arms. It almost looks as if the Khajiit is going through one of the first Heng-zhang (Horizontal Palm) rotations.

    I've always felt that Baguazhang techniques could prove devastating if one substituted the palm thrust for a Khajiit's - or a Po' Tun's - claw strikes. Forgive the shameless plug~ I know I did say I'd try not to refer to my own Apocryphal articles but I do go into quite a bit of detail here. Imagine what a full inch of sharp claw could do to an opponent's muscles and tendons with the circular momentum of Baguazhang behind it!

    Pushing and pulling could be references to the Moons and the tide, but it could also refer to the ways one exerts and controls momentum in hand-to-hand combat. Actually, now that I think of it, the two need not be separate. A great deal of the older East Asian martial arts blend philosophy into the techniques that they teach. Tai Chi Chuan is the most prominent example. Taking a lesson in Tai Chi is basically taking a lesson in Daoism.

     

     

  • Member
    February 21, 2018

    @Karver

    Straight to the point, I like it XD

    While I wouldn't exactly compare science to magic as science is a methodology, but if you see science as the accumulation of technological progress, then yes. The analogy works perfectly. 

    @A Shadow Under Moons

    Harrow, thanks for dropping in, that's some seriously interesting stuff. Everything you said here, makes me think Baguazhang is probably a great fit for Khajit and I wouldn't be surprised if it would indeed be an inspiration for some of the art we see on the temples. Besides the things you mention, there's also the clear parallel to be made between the circular motions and the name of the art; the Twin moons dance. Leave it to the Khajit to fight in circular motions to make an allusion to the moons while they punch you to death. XD

  • Member
    February 22, 2018

    A Shadow Under the Moons said:

    While I did write up a series of Apocryphal articles about the three Khajiiti claw-based martial arts, I'm going to try not refer to them here since, well, Apocrypha.

    I will, however, draw some parallels between actual martial arts and the depictions we see on the etchings in the Temple. All etchings show the hands and arms positioned in front of and to the sides of the upper torso in what appears to be basic defensive stances. The position of the legs is also noteworthy. In the first and third etching, the Khajiit appears to be in the 'universal' martial arts beginning stance - and I do mean universal; almost every martial art, from Wing Chun and Tai Chi Chuan to Western boxing and Muay Thai, make use of some variation of this stance - knees slightly bent, legs and feet separated at roughly shoulder-width, centre of gravity low, hands raised and close to the upper body to protect vital areas.

    The second etching is where I really went nuts with the parallels.

    Take a look at the Khajiit's stance here:

    Now take a look at this:

     

    This set of images depicts the footwork and palm techniques of Baguazhang, or the Eight Trigram Palm. This Chinese martial art places heavy emphasis on the usage of palm strikes alongwith circular, horizontal motions to control the flow of combat. Now, I am by no means an expert, but I did have some chances to observe Baguazhang practitioners when I was in secondary school... mostly during the times our kendo team got lazy and quit practice ahead of the other school clubs. The position of the Khajiit's pelvis is what immediately caught my attention, followed soon after by the position of the hands and arms. It almost looks as if the Khajiit is going through one of the first Heng-zhang (Horizontal Palm) rotations.

    I've always felt that Baguazhang techniques could prove devastating if one substituted the palm thrust for a Khajiit's - or a Po' Tun's - claw strikes. Forgive the shameless plug~ I know I did say I'd try not to refer to my own Apocryphal articles but I do go into quite a bit of detail here. Imagine what a full inch of sharp claw could do to an opponent's muscles and tendons with the circular momentum of Baguazhang behind it!

    Pushing and pulling could be references to the Moons and the tide, but it could also refer to the ways one exerts and controls momentum in hand-to-hand combat. Actually, now that I think of it, the two need not be separate. A great deal of the older East Asian martial arts blend philosophy into the techniques that they teach. Tai Chi Chuan is the most prominent example. Taking a lesson in Tai Chi is basically taking a lesson in Daoism.

     

     

    Now that is really cool. I saw the carvings, enjoyed the architecture, even pondered the significance for far longer than one should. Never spotted that! :)

    Teineeva said:

    Wulfhedinn said:

    I'm not sure what this is, but I'll give Khajiiti martial arts a look-in-to, seems interesting. Could link it in with my story, maybe?

    The point here is to simply discuss any findings you may have regarding the subject and see what other ideas people have on them. Anyway, if Khajiti martial art is how you would like to start off, let's get to it. :)

    I haven't actually looked into it a whole lot but came across some martial arts related stuff back when I was hoping to make an article on Kenarthi's roost and the Khajiti living there. There were a few things that jumped out at me, the first being the temple of two moons dance and the followers of the Riddle'thar who train there. It was at times a bit difficult to distinguish between the religious paths and oath these people follow and their martial prowess but from what I gathered those that complete the training are near invincible in unarmed combat. To be honest, I didn't look into it very deeply but what I got from the trainer there; a certain Inisashu-Jo who as his name suggests appeared rather wise.

    When asked about the Riddle'Thar he responds by saying:

    The way. The path. the road. Riddle'Thar is all of these, and none. For one, the road is a wall. For another, a wall the way. We all seek our place in ja-Kha'jay. Riddle'thar helps us find it.

    When you ask him what the flipping hell ja-Kha'jay means, he says the following:

    Ja-Kha'jay. It is what we all hope to achieve; the Lunar Lattice, where all fates are bound. Our place in the universe. For the Khajit, anyway.

    The vestige can then ask him if he is referring to the afterlife. He laughs and continues:

    Ha! One should hope not! If we are lucky, we reach ja-Kha'jay long before then! Otherwise, what is the point, yes? It is different for everyone. For some, it is to become King and rule over the little people, yes? Ha! We should all be so lucky! For others, it is death. You have some experience with this, no?

    He then goes on a tangent regarding the vestige's missing soul and calls it "your sugar". Which would lead to all kinds of odd interpretations of Khajitti customs. Anyway, after that, you can ask him to continue on about the Riddle'Thar and he happily complies.

    In the way one follows a map through a maze, one follows Riddle'Thar through Life. It teaches us to avoid -and embrace- danger. To fight and to run away. To accept change and to stave it off.

    That last bit is especially interesting to me as it sheds light on the khajitti approach to life. Where the Argonians follow the flow of change to the point of worshipping Sithis as its incarnation (and living in mud huts because mud is evermoving), and Men and Mer use chaos to attain a fleeting sense of order (often ridiculed for it by the argonians btw), the Khajitti learn when to accept or to refuse change. Which to me actually sounds like the more mentally sane fo the three but whatever.

    Anyway, the vestige can then ask how one finds their way out of the maze.

    A maze contains many things, not simply a way out. the best mazes hide many sweets behind traps and crevices. Riddle'Thar is not so much a way out of the maze as the way with the most sweets along the way. At the end of the path is ja-Kha'jay.

    So besides the obvious parallels to destiny and the idea of pushing and pulling change like the Moons push and pull the tides, there's probably a lot of cool tidbits for you guys to work with s, for now, I'm just going to move onto the screenshots.

    As the massive culture loving lore-buff that I am I will not spend any time in ESO not looking at the architecture. One thing I noticed in the temple of Riddle'thar was a series of etchings on the side of the buildings depicting what I think are martial arts movements or some kind of dance. I'll have you guys decide for yourselves:

    Later in Khenarthi's roost, we can even come across someone who seems to have studied Riddle'thar which is the second point I wanted to get to. A kahjitti woman named Zulana. You help her son kill his skooma trafficking dad in a hidden port east of Mistral. She gives you a few more details on what is taught at two moons dance:

    What stood out to me here is the use of the phrase "Ahzirr traajijazeri" that is most often associated with the Renjira Krin; a group of lowlifes, pirates, general scum etc in the second era and a group of resistance fighters near Leyawiin in the third era. It's just a minor detail but something interesting nonetheless.

    I'd really like to see the soul-sugar thing explored more. We looked at it very quickly in The Two Moons Dance article, and examined the Nordic cultural view on the realtionship between wind, breath, and soul in Nords: Soul, Breath and Focus, but an in-depth look at the pussy's eye-view on their cultural views would just be a drop of liquid sugar on the tongue.

    Karver the Lorc said:

    • How is Spellmaking explained in the lore?

    Okay, spellmaking. I would say it's actually more about how the spellmaking isn't explained in the Lore. The gameplay in this argument is sometimes helpful and sometimes it isn't, but I will start with this. Magic in TES is science. So let's forget about Spellmaking altars and such things for a moment and ponder the fact that science isn't simple. Nothing ever invented happened over night, right? Take fire - or heat  - for example. There have been many scientifical discoveries since the day we have figured how to make fire and use it to our advantage in some prehistoric cave up to this day where we can convert heat into energy for example, and we can apply this to the TES too, more or less. Every spell we know has been invented by someone, figured out how to control the stuff of creation we call Magicka and give it a certain shape.

    Just look at Response to Bero's Speech:

    Allow me in response to list the factors studied in the School of Destruction. The means of delivering the spell matters more in the School of Destruction than any other school, whether it is cast at a touch, at a range, in concentric circles, or cast once to be triggered later. What forces must be reigned in to cast the spell: fire, lightning, or frost? And what are the advantages and dangers of each? What are the responses from different targets from the assault of different spells of destruction? What are the possible defenses and how may they be assailed? What environmental factors must be taken into consideration? What are the advantages of a spell of delayed damage? Bero suggests that the School of Destruction cannot be subtle, yet he forgets about all the Curses that fall under the mantle of the school, sometimes affecting generation after generation in subtle yet sublime ways.

    All this isn't something you just cook at your local Spellmaking altar. Look at all the stuff the guy talks about, the ways you can cast a spell. At a touch, at a range, in concentric circles, to be triggered later. But let's take it up another level and generalize the spell variables that can be manipulated. 

    • Effect
    • Shape
    • Radius
    • Magnitude
    • Duration

    All this variables can be manipulated with. Skyrim has probably the best example of all the games in this moment, namely the Destruction spells. Look at the fire spells for example. What is there? A column of flames, firebolt, fireball, wall of flames, flame cloak, inferno. How are all these different? Well, they are all the same spell, aren't they? A fire spell, but the thing is that each most likely requires a different technique to cast it, different variables. 

    How is fireball different from a firebolt? They both start the same, with the same Shape, but when the fireball hits something, the Effect is suddenly something completely different, in both Radius and Magnitude in comparison to firebolt. And all this can be applied to every spell, which was most likely invented by someone who probably wrote a book about it or passed it down to his apprentice, thus spreading the knowledge. 

    Back in Morrowind and Oblivion - or even Daggerfall - there were named spells like Baronoff's Bloody Icicle or Finger of the Mountain, and each of them was invented by someone. You could think that when you learn them in games you are being taught a certain technique how to do that. 

    With all this taken in mind, especially the fire spells of Skyrim I mentioned, don't think for a moment that all that is fixed. Who says that maybe there will be a mage who figures out how to create a sword of pure fire in hand? Or that someone hasn't already invented Wards being cast in distance? 

    It's the stuff of creation, it's like researching atoms, only there everything's possible. It just needs to be researched and invented. 

    Now I could mention that the Schools of Magic are in reality only artificial constructs for easier understanding, that in reality magic is just magic, Destruction and Restoration are only names and categorizations. Everything comes from the same place, ale the spells just have different effects, shape, radius, magnitude and duration which can be tampered with by people clever enough to fiddle around with the creatia. 

    Love it!