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Necromancy: The Great Debate

Tags: #Karver  #Mannimarco  #Lore  #Necromancy 
  • November 25, 2016

    “Only the foolish and the fearful refuse to grasp power due to its source. They call us evil, but we are merely prudent. They call us irresponsible, but we understand the concept of risk and reward. They claim we bring terror and misery to the world … well, at least on this matter we are in agreement.”

    The imbeciles at the Mages Guild might have their great debate about whether Necromancy is ethical or not, but for me the great debate is whether Necromancy is soul magic or not. I've seen this asked many times and because I'm really deep into a project that deals with Magic it would be a shame not to takee a look at Necromancy.

    So is Necromancy a magic that manipulates souls to reanimate the dead or does it have a  different meaning?

    Well, we have to look at the beginning first. Where does Necromancy come from? Modern Necromancy, as we know it, was pioneered by Mannimarco who was a member of Psijic Order. I will simplify it a great deal here, but Psijic Order's specialty is a Mysticism - they call the Old Way. There is a close tie between Mysticism and Necromancy, some might even consider it a subset of Mysticism.

    But what we know from Legend of Vastarie, Mannimarco sought power through the direct application of necromantic energies and he believed the answer lies with Molag Bal and there he found Black Soul Gems. So it seems that the Necromancy did start as subset of Mysticism, Soul Trap (which is now considered a subset of Necromancy...funny)

    So what is the answer to our question? Does Necromancy use souls to power its spells?

    Yes and no.

    To me, there seems to be three ways how to reanimate a corpse, so let's look at them.

     

    With Soul

    Necromancy is known to many as the binding of souls to a form prepared—or in some cases, manufactured—by the conjurer.

    While technically accurate, the implication is that souls bound in this manner are imprisoned against their will with no hope of release.

    Further implied is the idea that souls occupying the construct are always sentient—the souls of men or mer—a fallacy perpetuated by the practice of animating corpses for martial or manual labors.

    It is this misunderstanding and potential for abuse that led to the vilification of necromancy and the expulsion of Mannimarco and his peers from the Isle of Artaeum. Legend of Vastarie

    You can probably notice the last sentence is biased and I would like to say that this source is most likely written from a perspective of a necromancer. Next!

    Necromancy, as you likely know, is the manipulation of souls, soul energies, or corpses of the dead. Unwilling spirits are often involved, and in the eyes of any rational being, the “study” of this type of magic is repellant. It should not be surprising to you that much knowledge of necromancy is attributed to Daedric forces, specifically those of the abhorrent Molag Bal, further cementing it as a sphere that must be shunned. Unhallowed Legions

    Ah, dear Phrastus of Elinhir. Well, he might be right that Molag Bal played a big role in the pioneering of Necromancy, being hungry for souls and all that. Mannimarco was sacrificing souls to Bal in a very similar manner souls are sacrificed to Ideal Masters, to give the necromancer power he desires.

    But if sorcerers bring them forth, then such a summons is blasphemy, an abomination before the Tribes and Temple, and a sin so great that ages of burning cannot cleanse the fault. Abide not the sorcerer among you, for he comes to steal the bones of your fathers and dust of your tombs. He seeks to bind by power what is yours by right, to drag forth the warm spirits from their world between and bind them to their service like slaves and beasts. Blasphemous Revenants

    This text literally overflows with religious fury, but it does point out something interesting regarding soul or spirits. When it comes do Dunmer their ancestors can be summoned forth to help those in need - the ancestors basicaly defy death, deciding to remain close to Mundus. Whether that is done by sheer power of will or rituals is difficult to say, but the point is that Dunmer don't consider this a form of Necromancy. They are perfectly fine with summoning spirits of their ancestors, but reanimating dead and similar practices is a vile thing in their eyes - well, not if it involves other races instead of their superior arses.

    Once summoned, the spirit is tethered to the animus geode; the geode will act as a beacon, allowing you to call the bound shade to your side whenever you wish. Practical Necromancy

    It was here that I finally understood the dragon cult's notion of resurrection. The second eternal life was only promised to those who ascended to the priesthood, but the lesser functionaries contributed their life force to sustaining them for eternity. I don't know what sort of eternal wellspring they draw from, but it's clear that each draugr carries only the barest whisper of life in it, and rekindles it nightly while resting in its niche. I now believe that the grotesque forms that we see in the barrows were, in fact, buried fully as men and women, and only over the thousands of years that have passed withered into the wretched things we know. If we had visited a barrow directly after its construction, we might not have even known any of its inhabitants were dead! Amongst the Draugr

    The interesting thing about Draugr is that they might have been a part of the greatest necromantic ritual we never heard about. It is clear that they somehow bound their souls to their bodies, for eternity and when they died - most likely of age, or hunger - they kept on walking around, giving their energy to Dragon Priests.

     

    Daedric Spirit

    This method focuses on not using the soul of the dead but instead using a conjured Daedric Spirit and stuffing it into the corpse.

    Corporeal dead provide more muscle, which comes in handy when you need manual labor or an instant fighting force. Plus, if you use minor Daedric spirits to animate them, corporeal undead have no sense of self or memory of past lives. They are more malleable, easier to command, and capable of following simple orders. In short, they make perfect servants for most of a necromancer's minion requirements. On Summoning Skeletons

    Now, it is true, of course, that conjuration is a common tool of sorcery, and we sorcerers often resort to summoning aid from Oblivion when a problem is best solved by judicious application of vicious brute force. It is also true that summoning Daedric spirits to possess and animate corpses, or calling up the souls of the dead for information or other services—in short, necromancy—is a subset of the art of conjuration, albeit inherently distasteful and degrading. However, to infer from this that all sorcerers are de facto necromancers as well is false, misleading, and libelous. Sorcery is Not Necromancy

    From the mouth of Divayth Fyr himself. Now you see where Conjuration come into this debate, why Necromancy is usually considered a same School. And when you think about, some Daedric Realms can be full of undead and skilled conjurer might even be able to summon those undead to Mundus, just like Daedra are summoned.

     

    Without Soul

    Now, here we have only one source and that is On Necromancy. I'm going to copy the whole thing because in my opinion this is one of the best books really portraying what one has to do to reanimate a corpse in the first place.

    Reanimation should not be taken lightly. Costs, both mundane and spiritual, can be very high. Intent is everything. Too much emotion may create a creature so consumed with anger and hate its every action is perverted by its pain. Too little creates a mindless husk with little more than the ability to follow the simplest of commands. A calm mind, its thoughts well-organized and its plans well-considered, is the most necessary ingredient for animating the dead.

    The soul is necessary, of course, as are many other ingredients listed at the end of this chapter. But as to the body … take caution. Any corpse may be reanimated, regardless of age or state of decay, but the most useful are those that are mostly intact (or can be made intact with little effort). A whole skeleton is better than a fresh, but mutilated, body.

    As to freshness, be careful in this consideration as well. Have you ever wondered why there are so many skeletons among the reanimated undead, fewer zombies, and only a scant few revenants? The longer a body remains inanimate, the less hold its original owner has on the corpse. A spirit can stay tied to its remains for days, weeks, or even years—the shorter the time, the more likely the spiritual umbilicus exists.

    A wise necromancer does not wish to fight for control of his creation with an angry spirit seeking a way back into the world. Best to be certain all of a creature's soul has departed before reanimation begins. Even should the necromancer win the battle, it is a cruel victory, tormenting a spirit on its way to rest.

    Raising the dead so recent that the soul has not yet fled is ill-advised, as true resurrection is not the purview of the necromancer, but something best left to gods and priests.

    Well, interesting read. I know that this source says that soul is necessary, but maybe it's just me, but the way how the rest is interpreted, it seems to me that these spells might be using the residual of soul instead of soul itself for the reanimation. But that is for you to consider.

    So yes, Necromancy is a magic of soul and spirit. It is a fuel in one way or another, but it can be done even through different ways most likely.

  • Member
    November 25, 2016

    The soul is necessary, of course, as are many other ingredients listed at the end of this chapter.

    I know that this source says that soul is necessary, but maybe it´s just me, but the way how the rest is interpreted, it seems to me that these spells might be using the residual of soul instead of soul itself for the reanimation.

    Yeah, it could be "soul" as a shorthand for the energy part. Or it could be taken literally. The beauty of interpretation and bending lore to suit your needs. Sometimes in Skyrim when a reanimated body dies a second death you can hear it say "freedom at last" - or something along those lines - which may indicate you are right in saying that the residual spirit is harnessed.

    But, again, that could also be a Daedric spirit uttering such words if that is the interpretation you're going for.

    Whether that is done by sheer power of will or rituals is difficult to say,

    The interesting thing about Draugr is that they might have been a part of the greatest necromantic ritual we never heard about. It is clear that they somehow bound their souls to their bodies, for eternity and when they died...

    It's been a long old time since I looked into the Dunmeri belief system, but I vaguely recall that one possible interpretation can be everyone's favourite TES thing, Mythopoeia. Like, if the Dark Elves believe this is their afterlife, then that particular afterlife will be theirs. The spirit goes to its aligned AE, right, so in this instance a Dunmer who has pledged herself to guard the family's shrine after death and left a token as an anchor will do just that upon death.

    Same could be said for the draugr in a way. If the belief in Sovngarde came after the Dragon War... maybe even as a consequece or contributing factor of said war, then the practice would cease due to this cultural shift in belief. So maybe in the case of Dragon Priests it's less a form of necromancy as it is their reality shaped by their belief. They beleived they would have that immortality and so they did.

    Posssibly :D

  • November 26, 2016

    Phil said:

    Yeah, it could be "soul" as a shorthand for the energy part. Or it could be taken literally. The beauty of interpretation and bending lore to suit your needs. Sometimes in Skyrim when a reanimated body dies a second death you can hear it say "freedom at last" - or something along those lines - which may indicate you are right in saying that the residual spirit is harnessed.

    But, again, that could also be a Daedric spirit uttering such words if that is the interpretation you're going for.

    I was thinking about it and yeah, even if I was a Daedric Spirit, a dead body would be the last place for where I would want to be for my vacation. :D 

    The whole source seems to me more about why a Necromancer should wait until the soul leaves or something, so yeah. 

     

    I agree about Dunmer, if they believe they become one with ancestors, then they will. Though I vaguely remember something about bounding, but I can´t just place it. 

    As for Draugr...I´m not sure there, it doesn´t seem like a really like a belief thing. The draugr are constantly feeding the Priest with energy, so unless Dragon Priest´s belief would affect everyone around him...I´m not sure.

     

  • Member
    November 26, 2016

    Hmm. Yeah, the draugr. After all this time I still hesitate to settle on a definition of that process I find satisfactory. That could be because my mind fixates on the black vs grand soul issue. It's like... if we seperate gameplay mechanics and lore, the picture becomes easier to see. Yet I am loath to do so as I really like that ambiguity.

    A giant, a dragon priest and a draugr deathlord give greater or grand souls rather than black. If we imagine for a moment that this is intended, it gives us startling insight into the minutiae of mythopoeia - these creatures are not deemed by the playable races as being "people" and so by consequence neither does The Wheel. Yet deathlords, giants and priests can speak. Deathlords even taunt the player, demonstrating sapience.

    If we apply a thought experiment and ask the question, "what if the Dragon Cult was still extant and a member of the priesthood cast soul trap on a deathlord, what type of soul would be forthcoming?"

    If the answer is "black, because the prevailing culture deems it such and so too, then, must Arkay" we can perhaps glean an insight into the immortality promised to the cultists. In exchange for their Energy, their AE is left to inhabit the body - true immortality (with one helluvah catch).

    However, if the answer to the question is "a grand soul because the AE has flown" then we are possibly looking at something much more like the biggest necromantic ritual ever as you described.

    In any event it is a subject worty of thought. Tight little article Karves :)

  • November 26, 2016
    Also, this sentence got me thinking about Arkay's burial rituals: "The spirit can stay tied to its remains for days, weeks, or even years..." Sounds to me like there is always a link between spirit and the body. Maybe Arkay's priests sever that link for good during proper burial? Would explain the number of ghosts and such.
  • Member
    November 26, 2016

    Karver the Afflicted said: Also, this sentence got me thinking about Arkay's burial rituals: "The spirit can stay tied to its remains for days, weeks, or even years..." Sounds to me like there is always a link between spirit and the body. Maybe Arkay's priests sever that link for good during proper burial? Would explain the number of ghosts and such.

    Aye, that fits with what I believe: Arkay's Blessing, which we bestow upon the dying, to prevent their souls from being used without consent. This could be that link-severage.

  • Member
    December 5, 2016

    I am currently putting together a large piece on Necromancy and Soul Magic I will leave my reply when its done, interesting subject guys for sure

  • December 20, 2016

    Phil said:

    A giant, a dragon priest and a draugr deathlord give greater or grand souls rather than black. If we imagine for a moment that this is intended, it gives us startling insight into the minutiae of mythopoeia - these creatures are not deemed by the playable races as being "people" and so by consequence neither does The Wheel. Yet deathlords, giants and priests can speak. Deathlords even taunt the player, demonstrating sapience.

    As I see it, this rather demonstrates the specifics of the draugr as a kind. Remember that article about souls? A draugr's personality part of the soul is missing, leaving only the life force part and thus they a draugr isn't really a person. Their sapience seems more like a sort of a... program that dictates a certain behavior to them. As for the giants, they too aren't really sentient, also, correct me if I'm mistaken (don't remember), a mammoth gives a grand soul too...

     

  • Member
    December 20, 2016

    Sahrot Su'um, Thuri! Hi Hun. Pah Sil Lah. :D I think a Giant has a greater soul to be honest, must look it up.

    So we could say that the mammoth with its grand soul is almost 100% energy needed to fuel such a massive entity. A being like a man or mer has a grand soul, called black because only a black soul gem can contain it, is probaly 50% energy and 50% AE.

    But for something like a Deathlord? If the soul is grand but is only made up of pure energy but it was once a man, why if the AE has gone does it still have such a massve ammount of magicka?

  • December 20, 2016

    How are you able to tell that a Deathlord's has a greater amount of magicka than any man or mer? I'm inclined to think that they have been powerful mages when alive (which is possible the reason of their higher status among the other draugr) and thus are powerful after death as well. Also, I see no reason to think that it has to be 50% energy and 50% AE, could be 60%/40% or 90%/10% just as likely.