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Let's talk about GOTS8 Episode Three

    • 197 posts
    May 2, 2019 5:26 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    @Mr. Edd

    Re Arya: yes. For me, not so much the subverting expectations trope, but because it doesn’t make sense. At all. They did a BEAUTIFUL job at setting Arya up for subversion inside Kings Landing. Taking care of things from the inside, if you will. I mean, they have Tyrion and Varys. And Jaime - whether he’d be cooperative or not I don’t Know yet. But they have these people who KNOW KINGS LANDING LIKE THE BACK OF THEIR HANDS, and can help Arya figure out exactly where she needs to go and what assets she’ll have along the way. She’s a shapeshifting assassin for the love of god. Having her go all heroic on the Night King just sort of makes the same sort of action in Kings Landing redundant. And I was hoping she’d be the one to kill Cersei since she’s been on her list from day fucking one. It would have been poetic. Expected? Maybe. But sometimes expected things are good. And satisfying. the exact opposite of what happened with the Night King. For me, at least. 

    Re the crypts: YES. My husband and I talked about this during episode 2 when they were planning to have peole in the crypts. Hey, if the dead are raised wouldn’t the Stark dead be a threat? No, not really. Bodies decompose. And yeah, if a fresh wight couldn’t make its way out of a wood box... it was annoying. AND it made Sansa and Tyrion’s reluctance to use the dragonglass dagger to poke those shambling corpses make even less sense. Tyrion, we know, has fought through worse. And Sansa is terrified, but her sole concern all this time has been for her people. She didn’t want to leave for the “safety” of the crypts for her people. That’s a pretty good motivator for getting slightly stabby with a knife you KNOW will kill them with one cut. 

    The more I think about it, the more I dread the final episodes. I thought the show was setting up something unexpected. But now I’m just wondering if thy’re just going to tie it up in a neat package and let the final skirmish be a fight between Cersei and Jon/Danerys and then have either Jon/Danerys step aside out of love for the other. After episode three, I’m thinking that might be the way they’re going to go. 


    This post was edited by ilanisilver at May 3, 2019 12:25 PM EDT
    • 197 posts
    May 3, 2019 12:33 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    ALSO...so, is the Lord of Light’s story arc done? No resolution really, no delving into what it is, what the religion/magic/whatever’s all about? Just that the purpose of everything - all the killing and sacrifice and blood magic - was simply so Melisandre and Beric could help Arya kill the Night King? I mean, the only LoL guys I remember from the show are dead now. No Lady Stoneheart, none of the people Tyrion (I think) encountered in the book. Wasn’t there like, an entire temple of them closer to the slaver’s bay region, after Tyrion killed his father and escaped to go find Danerys? I mean, is it done? No more magic, no explanation, no history? I was never a fan of the LoL or his crew, but magic is always fascinating, and for it to blink out just like that is...not satisfying. 

    • 321 posts
    May 3, 2019 1:12 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    I believe they ditched the Lord of Light subplot to focus on the big conflict in Westeros. To be honest, I thought Jon would be the next Azor Ahai seeing how Melisandre was able to be revive using the Lord of Light's magic. I like how GRRM does magic in his books, where it feels so mystical and mysterious that it hards for a normal person to comprehend, well at least that's how I see it.

    Also, Shadiversity made an analysis video on the Battle of Winterhold. I consider his channel as a reliable source for Medieval history.

    • 197 posts
    May 3, 2019 1:35 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    YES. I only watched the first 7 minutes or so of the video because, much like Bran, I have to go now. But I agree so far. I WILL give them a bit of a bye using the trebuchet, not where they were placed, the guy was spot on there. But using them at all? I mean, they only had so long to prepare and they thought this was going to be a civilization-ending battle. So it made sense for them to use every last resource they could use. I mean, why not, right? But yes, after the infantry has engaged, don’t use them, you‘re firing on your own people. Which my husband and I kept saying during the fight. Stop firing on your own damn people. But yeah. And also, he made a point of saying don’t use them because people could simply move out of the way, etc. So, I’ll also give them a bye for this, because they’re fighting wights not people, and they weren’t completely sure how much of the wights’ decisions were their own to make. Would they get out of the way like human soldiers should, or would they just walk mindlessly into the fire? So yeah, those two exceptions aside, i’m Looking forward to watching the rest of the video. 

     

    I’m wondering now that I think of it if they’re playing somewhat of a trick on us, and the Night King/Bran story isn’t done. Maybe it’s wishful thinking on my part, but maybe it didn’t all end as simply as it seems? Remember that movie Dark Crystal in the 80s, where 2 species were split apart into polar opposite components, and the world wouldn’t be healed until they were put together again? It would be super cool if they did what they had to do in the Weirwood because the Night King and Bran had to be right next to each other when the Night King was stabbed, because reasons. Like soul transfer or something to the like. I don’t know. But it would be cool if it wasn’t completely over yet. The trailer for the next episode shows nothing to support the idea, but maybe...I’m grasping at straws and holding out hope here. 

     

     

    • 1439 posts
    May 3, 2019 5:18 PM EDT
    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    https://io9.gizmodo.com/that-new-jon-snow-theory-sucks-and-heres-why-1834475647/amp
    • 197 posts
    May 3, 2019 6:19 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    Damn neckbeards have to ruin everything. I’ve seen the complaints that Arya is a Mary Sue and it’s beyond laughable. She’s been studying for YEARS to do the shit she does. Meanwhile Jon learns how to ride a dragon in 5 seconds and it’s all good. He’s special, after all. 

    • 1439 posts
    May 3, 2019 11:09 PM EDT

    ilanisilver said:

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    Damn neckbeards have to ruin everything. I’ve seen the complaints that Arya is a Mary Sue and it’s beyond laughable. She’s been studying for YEARS to do the shit she does. Meanwhile Jon learns how to ride a dragon in 5 seconds and it’s all good. He’s special, after all. 

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     https://www.slashfilm.com/game-of-thrones-is-arya-stark-azor-ahai/ So, new theory

    True, people are saying Jon helped by....screaming at the Night King to distract him. I mean yeah, Arya coming out of nowhere was odd, but then again, trained Faceless Woman 

    • 321 posts
    May 4, 2019 12:39 AM EDT

    Chris said: SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers... https://io9.gizmodo.com/that-new-jon-snow-theory-sucks-and-heres-why-1834475647/amp

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    So they thought that Jon was Dovahkiin? Okay, cool.

    Also, I don't know about you guys, but lately I feel like the show writers are going social justice on these last two seasons. 


    This post was edited by A-Pocky-Hah! at May 4, 2019 12:48 AM EDT
    • 1439 posts
    May 4, 2019 6:46 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    • 1439 posts
    May 4, 2019 6:48 PM EDT

    A-Pocky-Hah! said:

    Chris said: SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers... https://io9.gizmodo.com/that-new-jon-snow-theory-sucks-and-heres-why-1834475647/amp

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    So they thought that Jon was Dovahkiin? Okay, cool.

    Also, I don't know about you guys, but lately I feel like the show writers are going social justice on these last two seasons. 

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    More like him screaming at the Night King distracted him enough that he focused on Jon. 

  • Mr.
    • 763 posts
    May 5, 2019 7:31 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    @ilanisilver

    I’m wondering now that I think of it if they’re playing somewhat of a trick on us, and the Night King/Bran story isn’t done. Maybe it’s wishful thinking on my part, but maybe it didn’t all end as simply as it seems? Remember that movie Dark Crystal in the 80s, where 2 species were split apart into polar opposite components, and the world wouldn’t be healed until they were put together again? It would be super cool if they did what they had to do in the Weirwood because the Night King and Bran had to be right next to each other when the Night King was stabbed, because reasons. Like soul transfer or something to the like. I don’t know. But it would be cool if it wasn’t completely over yet. The trailer for the next episode shows nothing to support the idea, but maybe...I’m grasping at straws and holding out hope here.

    Yeah, that's my hope too. I saw an interesting theory that the ultimate villain would be the Three Eyed Raven/Bran: if we remember back when we found out how the Night King was created, the Children of the Forest created him as a nuclear weapon to be used against humans, but it backfired horribly. So at one point the CotF united with humans to destroy their weapon... but who's to say that the CotF decided to sit quietly after they defeated the Night King for the first time?

    The theory goes that the Three Eyed Raven is another tool made by the Children of the Forest, and his objective is both the correction/destruction of their mistake (the Night King) and the destruction of their first enemy, humanity. It could explain why Bran seems so interested in "trivial" metters such as Jon's parentage and claim to the throne... maybe he is trying to pit human against human in an attempt to destroy/weaken them.

    Damn neckbeards have to ruin everything. I’ve seen the complaints that Arya is a Mary Sue and it’s beyond laughable. She’s been studying for YEARS to do the shit she does. Meanwhile Jon learns how to ride a dragon in 5 seconds and it’s all good. He’s special, after all.

    I don't think Arya is a Mary Sue, but I do think her character has been largely mishandled by the writers on the show. The Faceless Men don't really train to be warriors, they train to be assassins... which is the one reason I'm kind of pissed that Arya defeated Brienne last season. Brienne should have mopped the floor with her.

    But I feel like the writers' mishandling of the Arya character goes beyond that: I think they missed the point GRRM is trying to convey in the books, in the form of two characters: Arya and another one that was cut from the show, Lady Stoneheart (a resurrected Catelyn Stark). I think GRRM is trying to show the futility of revenge, or... Maybe he's trying to make the readers ask themselves: how far would you be willing to go for revenge? How far would you be willing to keep cheering for a character as they go around murdering people left and right, sometimes innocents who find themselves on the way of said character to revenge.

    In the books, I think that's the whole point of Lady Stoneheart: you want revenge? Here, take it. Take all of it. Do you feel better now? I think GRRM wants us to say: No, I don't feel better. The last Brienne chapter we had in the books, she was being hanged by Lady Stoneheart together with Podrick and another minor character. But the last we see of Brienne in the books, she is luring Jaime Lannister into the woods, because Catelyn wants to play "Judge, Jury and Executioner" with him. Presumably, Stoneheart is holding Podrick hostage to force Brienne into luring Jaime into a trap. This must be so freaking horrible for Brienne, who embodies the knightly values, and yet is forced by the woman she served in life to break them, one way or another.

    In the show, it seems like the writers outright glorify murder and violence, as long as it's done by "the good guys". And Arya is the biggest example of that: oh, she just killed an innocent girl so she could get to the Freys, mutilated the body of two Freys and cooked them into a pie, served it to their father and killed him? AWESOME! BADASS! Are we supposed to believe that a person like that would be a normal, feel-good happy person?

    If my memory doesn't fail me, GRRM was a conscious objector druing the Vietnam War. He doesn't like glorifying violence and war, and that's particularly noticeable in A Feast for Crows, especially with Brienne's chapters as she travels the land and sees the effects that the War of the Five Kings had on the common people. Another result of the war in the books and to some extent on the show, is the rise of the Faith Militant and the High Septon: the chaos of war might as well have created an extremist monster. (Though I admit, it's hard not to cheer for the High Septon in the books).

     

    @Chris

    True, people are saying Jon helped by....screaming at the Night King to distract him. I mean yeah, Arya coming out of nowhere was odd, but then again, trained Faceless Woman

    I doubt his screaming had anything to do with it, and I also find it odd that people think Jon didn't do anything. Without Jon, Dany, her armies and the dragons wouldn't be on the North and without Jon people wouldn't have obsidian weapons and the wildlings would have been left in the other side of the wall to be slaughtered by the Night King or the wildlings would have breached the wall and slaughtered the Night's Watch...

    @A-Pocky-Hah!

    So they thought that Jon was Dovahkiin? Okay, cool.

    Also, I don't know about you guys, but lately I feel like the show writers are going social justice on these last two seasons.

    Yeah, but that has been going on for a while. Ever since they messed up the sand snakes and made the whole Dornish plot all about some dumb form of girl power!, and even before, in the way they glorified all the misdeeds of Daenerys. That said, this is at fault of the show writers, who simply seem to struggle to write compelling female characters (outside of the material provided by GRRM and outside of Cersei). GRRM has many strong female characters (Brienne, Arianne Martell (who was cut from the show), Dany, Catelyn, Sansa...), but they are written well, you buy their strenght as something natural and not hamfisted in because it's popular to do so now. More importantly, GRRM writes about different kinds of strenght: motherly love with Catelyn and Cersei, physical strenght with Brienne, "conventional" feminine strenght with Sansa (which the show turned into "lol, Sansa's dumb yeah, she can't fight, such a weak character").

    What I'm trying to say is that, sometimes, it seems like to the show writers, the only way for a feminine character to be strong is for her to display what are conventionally masculine traits. Everything else is deemed "weak" or "being stupid".

    • 1439 posts
    May 6, 2019 12:38 AM EDT

    Mr. Edd said:

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    @ilanisilver

    I’m wondering now that I think of it if they’re playing somewhat of a trick on us, and the Night King/Bran story isn’t done. Maybe it’s wishful thinking on my part, but maybe it didn’t all end as simply as it seems? Remember that movie Dark Crystal in the 80s, where 2 species were split apart into polar opposite components, and the world wouldn’t be healed until they were put together again? It would be super cool if they did what they had to do in the Weirwood because the Night King and Bran had to be right next to each other when the Night King was stabbed, because reasons. Like soul transfer or something to the like. I don’t know. But it would be cool if it wasn’t completely over yet. The trailer for the next episode shows nothing to support the idea, but maybe...I’m grasping at straws and holding out hope here.

    Yeah, that's my hope too. I saw an interesting theory that the ultimate villain would be the Three Eyed Raven/Bran: if we remember back when we found out how the Night King was created, the Children of the Forest created him as a nuclear weapon to be used against humans, but it backfired horribly. So at one point the CotF united with humans to destroy their weapon... but who's to say that the CotF decided to sit quietly after they defeated the Night King for the first time?

    The theory goes that the Three Eyed Raven is another tool made by the Children of the Forest, and his objective is both the correction/destruction of their mistake (the Night King) and the destruction of their first enemy, humanity. It could explain why Bran seems so interested in "trivial" metters such as Jon's parentage and claim to the throne... maybe he is trying to pit human against human in an attempt to destroy/weaken them.

    Damn neckbeards have to ruin everything. I’ve seen the complaints that Arya is a Mary Sue and it’s beyond laughable. She’s been studying for YEARS to do the shit she does. Meanwhile Jon learns how to ride a dragon in 5 seconds and it’s all good. He’s special, after all.

    I don't think Arya is a Mary Sue, but I do think her character has been largely mishandled by the writers on the show. The Faceless Men don't really train to be warriors, they train to be assassins... which is the one reason I'm kind of pissed that Arya defeated Brienne last season. Brienne should have mopped the floor with her.

    But I feel like the writers' mishandling of the Arya character goes beyond that: I think they missed the point GRRM is trying to convey in the books, in the form of two characters: Arya and another one that was cut from the show, Lady Stoneheart (a resurrected Catelyn Stark). I think GRRM is trying to show the futility of revenge, or... Maybe he's trying to make the readers ask themselves: how far would you be willing to go for revenge? How far would you be willing to keep cheering for a character as they go around murdering people left and right, sometimes innocents who find themselves on the way of said character to revenge.

    In the books, I think that's the whole point of Lady Stoneheart: you want revenge? Here, take it. Take all of it. Do you feel better now? I think GRRM wants us to say: No, I don't feel better. The last Brienne chapter we had in the books, she was being hanged by Lady Stoneheart together with Podrick and another minor character. But the last we see of Brienne in the books, she is luring Jaime Lannister into the woods, because Catelyn wants to play "Judge, Jury and Executioner" with him. Presumably, Stoneheart is holding Podrick hostage to force Brienne into luring Jaime into a trap. This must be so freaking horrible for Brienne, who embodies the knightly values, and yet is forced by the woman she served in life to break them, one way or another.

    In the show, it seems like the writers outright glorify murder and violence, as long as it's done by "the good guys". And Arya is the biggest example of that: oh, she just killed an innocent girl so she could get to the Freys, mutilated the body of two Freys and cooked them into a pie, served it to their father and killed him? AWESOME! BADASS! Are we supposed to believe that a person like that would be a normal, feel-good happy person?

    If my memory doesn't fail me, GRRM was a conscious objector druing the Vietnam War. He doesn't like glorifying violence and war, and that's particularly noticeable in A Feast for Crows, especially with Brienne's chapters as she travels the land and sees the effects that the War of the Five Kings had on the common people. Another result of the war in the books and to some extent on the show, is the rise of the Faith Militant and the High Septon: the chaos of war might as well have created an extremist monster. (Though I admit, it's hard not to cheer for the High Septon in the books).

     

    @Chris

    True, people are saying Jon helped by....screaming at the Night King to distract him. I mean yeah, Arya coming out of nowhere was odd, but then again, trained Faceless Woman

    I doubt his screaming had anything to do with it, and I also find it odd that people think Jon didn't do anything. Without Jon, Dany, her armies and the dragons wouldn't be on the North and without Jon people wouldn't have obsidian weapons and the wildlings would have been left in the other side of the wall to be slaughtered by the Night King or the wildlings would have breached the wall and slaughtered the Night's Watch...

    @A-Pocky-Hah!

    So they thought that Jon was Dovahkiin? Okay, cool.

    Also, I don't know about you guys, but lately I feel like the show writers are going social justice on these last two seasons.

    Yeah, but that has been going on for a while. Ever since they messed up the sand snakes and made the whole Dornish plot all about some dumb form of girl power!, and even before, in the way they glorified all the misdeeds of Daenerys. That said, this is at fault of the show writers, who simply seem to struggle to write compelling female characters (outside of the material provided by GRRM and outside of Cersei). GRRM has many strong female characters (Brienne, Arianne Martell (who was cut from the show), Dany, Catelyn, Sansa...), but they are written well, you buy their strenght as something natural and not hamfisted in because it's popular to do so now. More importantly, GRRM writes about different kinds of strenght: motherly love with Catelyn and Cersei, physical strenght with Brienne, "conventional" feminine strenght with Sansa (which the show turned into "lol, Sansa's dumb yeah, she can't fight, such a weak character").

    What I'm trying to say is that, sometimes, it seems like to the show writers, the only way for a feminine character to be strong is for her to display what are conventionally masculine traits. Everything else is deemed "weak" or "being stupid".

    True, but I think its cause people wanted Jon to be the one to kill the Night King. I mean, it would have been neat, but then again, some people would see it as cliche, and that Jon would be taking the spotlight away from other people. But yeah, I do feel there was, even in the books, something....off about the Children. They, IMS, don't hold the same values as humans, and that is quite true. Personally, a lot of the ASOIAF women feel to me like "Ripley" as in, if theyr'e badass, they earn it, and its not always through strength alone. Some use their wits and charm, some via sheer intimidation, and some through physical strength.