Forums » Fallout

Oh Bethesda, what is you doin

    • 697 posts
    November 12, 2018 3:54 PM EST

    In mid-to-late October 2018, Bethesda Game Studios released the following statement regarding Fallout 76: 

    Three years of develoment, and not only do they not know what their product is, but they want us to pay them to figure it out. This whole 1-month Beta has the same stink that Battlefield 3's Beta had when it released one month before the full game. It was a broken beta that stayed broken after release and took at least a year post-release to get fixed. You don't have to listen very long to hear about the litany of bugs plaguing F76, and you don't have to look for very far to realize that F76 is just FO4 with even less of what makes Fallout good. There's too many red flags here for me to keep defending Bethesda. They're starting to look a little too much like EA. Don't pay Bethesda to test a game that they can't even define. 

    • 277 posts
    November 12, 2018 4:19 PM EST

    Yeah... they sound a lot like that saying "fake it till' you make it". Not a good idea to tell that to the public...

    • 1461 posts
    November 12, 2018 7:31 PM EST

    You don't have to listen very long to hear about the litany of bugs plaguing F76, and you don't have to look for very far to realize that F76 is just FO4 with even less of what makes Fallout good. There's too many red flags here for me to keep defending Bethesda. They're starting to look a little too much like EA. Don't pay Bethesda to test a game that they can't even define. 

    I would probably argue that it's Fallout 4 without all the stuff that made F4 bad, but both games are (IMO) completely different from Fallout 1 ---? New Vegas. 

    But yeah, this BETA has been, actually quite disgusting in my opinion. I could list all my complaints but it'd be a long list and I don't have the time for it, but to be entirely honest I've been incredibly dismayed at the path Bethesda has taken with it. Just the major ones were putting it behind a pay-wall, having such a limited time to run it, the limited hours, the fact that Xbox users were promised more time and then barely got more time (both the fact that Xbox Users might've got more time and the fact that they didn't are disturbing to me).

    That said...I still think the game is going to be something I enjoy. The Gameplay aspects involve everything I enjoyed about F4 and skipping everything I disliked (the shitty voiced protagonists, the shitty writing for the Main Quest and everything terrible about the dialogue system). That said if F4 had New Vegas or even 3's level of writing and character work I'd be shitting on Fallout:76 a lot more than I have, but 4 was just...inferior in some aspects.

    • 393 posts
    November 12, 2018 8:17 PM EST

    Why, they are screwing up as bad as possible. It became quite clear to me after the downgrade of Legends. What is happening with FO76 only confirms my suspicions. Tbh, I'm starting to think that it will only get worse and worse. My hope has not died yet, but it feels as if shot with a poisoned Daedric arrow.

    • 697 posts
    November 12, 2018 8:25 PM EST

    Noodles said:

    Yeah... they sound a lot like that saying "fake it till' you make it". Not a good idea to tell that to the public...

    Right? But they backed themselves into a corner by developing and releasing a game that they know full well doesn't work. If they said nothing, it would look like they didn't care and would only reaffirm the opinion of those who see this as a cash-grab. They had to say something, and they had to include the truth of the situation in there somewhere, so they hid it behind some PR language and crossed their fingers. 

    • 623 posts
    November 12, 2018 8:29 PM EST

    I get the feeling that they were trying to say that what happens in this game and where it goes from here is up to the players but it certainly is easy to read that as them having no idea what they've created. Either way there's being honest and then there's saying too much, Bethesda's leaning more towards saying too much.

    • 697 posts
    November 12, 2018 8:38 PM EST

    Dragonborn2021 said:

    I would probably argue that it's Fallout 4 without all the stuff that made F4 bad, but both games are (IMO) completely different from Fallout 1 ---? New Vegas. 

    But yeah, this BETA has been, actually quite disgusting in my opinion. I could list all my complaints but it'd be a long list and I don't have the time for it, but to be entirely honest I've been incredibly dismayed at the path Bethesda has taken with it. Just the major ones were putting it behind a pay-wall, having such a limited time to run it, the limited hours, the fact that Xbox users were promised more time and then barely got more time (both the fact that Xbox Users might've got more time and the fact that they didn't are disturbing to me).

    That said...I still think the game is going to be something I enjoy. The Gameplay aspects involve everything I enjoyed about F4 and skipping everything I disliked (the shitty voiced protagonists, the shitty writing for the Main Quest and everything terrible about the dialogue system). That said if F4 had New Vegas or even 3's level of writing and character work I'd be shitting on Fallout:76 a lot more than I have, but 4 was just...inferior in some aspects.

    What about the fact that (as far as I know) there are no NPC quest givers and that all quest info is given through notes, holotapes, and terminals? No game that relies on exposition dumps to tell its story can be considered good writing. The way I see it, all the fun that can be had in F76 can be had equally in any other game that lets you play with friends. It's interchangeable with Borderlands, ESO, WoW, etc. And when I think about playing single player, without NPCs, stuck in a world of heavy-handed exposition, all I can think about F76 is that it's a shell of what Fallout is supposed to be, made that way by developers who would rather roll over for the lowest common denominator than make a game that long time fans would stand by. Fallout 4 was an omen for the direction they're taking. And knowing that Bethesda plans to use the Creation Engine to make ES6 just makes the future look worse. 

    • 623 posts
    November 12, 2018 8:40 PM EST

    Golden Fool said:

    I get the feeling that they were trying to say that what happens in this game and where it goes from here is up to the players but it certainly is easy to read that as them having no idea what they've created. Either way there's being honest and then there's saying too much, Bethesda's leaning more towards saying too much.

    I thought I should expand on the first point some more, with the style of game that Fallout 76 is players eventually end up making their own stories, hell we do this all the time in the single player Fallouts whenever we roleplay. So it is possible that Bethesda doesn't know what this game will turn out to be in that sense, or it could just be PR talk, unfortunately we'll never know for sure and plenty of people have already made a decisions one way or the other. I still think this would have gone over better if they had at least improved the wording of it. 

    • 1461 posts
    November 12, 2018 9:01 PM EST

    What about the fact that (as far as I know) there are no NPC quest givers and that all quest info is given through notes, holotapes, and terminals? No game that relies on exposition dumps to tell its story can be considered good writing. The way I see it, all the fun that can be had in F76 can be had equally in any other game that lets you play with friends. It's interchangeable with Borderlands, ESO, WoW, etc. And when I think about playing single player, without NPCs, stuck in a world of heavy-handed exposition, all I can think about F76 is that it's a shell of what Fallout is supposed to be, made that way by developers who would rather roll over for the lowest common denominator than make a game that long time fans would stand by. Fallout 4 was an omen for the direction they're taking. And knowing that Bethesda plans to use the Creation Engine to make ES6 just makes the future look worse. 

    I actually have no problem with the new style of questing and storytelling in theory. Of course it's possible that Bethesda will completly fuck it up but I don't think that there's a fundamental problem with the idea. It's actually a rather interesting style that I think could. Could. Add to the experience of playing a Fallout game in a new interesting way. The idea behind it is solid, and with the proper care could be something fascinating, it can create a level of mystery and exploration for each quest that I think games are missing, and to be honest most of the best writing in F4 is in the Terminal Entries, Notes and some of the Holotapes. So...look I'm not going to stand here and say that it's perfect or that Bethesda probably won't fuck it up, but I think it's an interesting idea that could work if Bethesda had the right writers. 

    From what I've seen of playthroughs, it's worked rather well in the early stages of the game. It might be a bit tougher later on or on multiple playthroughs (which is a huge flaw of the system) but...yeah I'm interested and enjoying what I've seen so far. On top of that, as Goldie mentioned, I think that Fallout 76 is going to depend somewhat on the player in the same way Skyrim (which I think has some pretty terrible writing most of the time) has.

    It's an experiment...Bethesda's been pretty open about that, and while they totally fucked up by both making it full price and the entire BETA experience, at least as far as I'm concerned...it's still interesting enough that I'm willing to play it. Not paying anywhere near full price, we've got a deal going down here where I trade in 2 games and get it for $29 (with the base price being $100 in Australia) and that's the only reason I'm paying for it now instead of waiting to see what it's like. Because yeah, this really could be a huge fuck up on every level, I don't fully trust Bethesda's writing to bridge the gap enough, but I'm willing to see what it's like.

    • 623 posts
    November 12, 2018 9:08 PM EST

    Dragonborn2021 said:

    Not paying anywhere near full price, we've got a deal going down here where I trade in 2 games and get it for $29 (with the base price being $100 in Australia) and that's the only reason I'm paying for it now instead of waiting to see what it's like. 

    Jb Hi Fi also has it for $59 which while not as cheap as that deal is still better then $100 and you get to keep those two games.


    This post was edited by Golden Fool at November 12, 2018 9:09 PM EST
    • 1461 posts
    November 12, 2018 9:17 PM EST

    Jb Hi Fi also has it for $59 which while not as cheap as that deal is still better then $100 and you get to keep those two games.

    Fair, but I've got about a dozen games I don't play anyway, I mean most of them aren't worth much of anything but since I got them preowned or for Christmas sales I'm really not losing much in the long haul. That and because I'm a Level 3 member (which says a lot about my spending history with EB :P) I get 15% extra trade credit and have $10 to throw on top of that because of my level...Lots of benefits for trading in the games even if they aren't going to net me quite as much as selling them on eBay or something.

    Bah, sorry, I spent about half an hour yesterday breaking everything down so I'm a bit ranty on the subject :P 

    • 86 posts
    November 12, 2018 10:05 PM EST
    I’m not a big fan of Fallout, but I can’t help but feel Bethesda is being judged a bit too harshly here. First of all, they’re trying something new, so of course there will be bugs. Hell, there were a ton of bugs when Skyrim came out, and that was a type of game they had experience with. The whole point of the Beta is to smooth out those bugs before release. Personally I don’t think it’s a cash grab. Bethesda has never needed that in the past and I don’t think they ever will. At the end of the day, if there are some bad decisions made I believe they were most likely made for the right reasons, and not maliciously. If you can’t support the management(i.e Bethesda Softworks) then at least support the developers over at Bethesda Studios, because I’m 100% sure they actually care about Fallout.

    In Todd Howard we trust. ‘Nuff said
    This post was edited by Decumus Scotti at November 12, 2018 10:07 PM EST
    • 86 posts
    November 12, 2018 10:10 PM EST
    Legion said:

    Dragonborn2021 said:

    I would probably argue that it's Fallout 4 without all the stuff that made F4 bad, but both games are (IMO) completely different from Fallout 1 ---? New Vegas. 

    But yeah, this BETA has been, actually quite disgusting in my opinion. I could list all my complaints but it'd be a long list and I don't have the time for it, but to be entirely honest I've been incredibly dismayed at the path Bethesda has taken with it. Just the major ones were putting it behind a pay-wall, having such a limited time to run it, the limited hours, the fact that Xbox users were promised more time and then barely got more time (both the fact that Xbox Users might've got more time and the fact that they didn't are disturbing to me).

    That said...I still think the game is going to be something I enjoy. The Gameplay aspects involve everything I enjoyed about F4 and skipping everything I disliked (the shitty voiced protagonists, the shitty writing for the Main Quest and everything terrible about the dialogue system). That said if F4 had New Vegas or even 3's level of writing and character work I'd be shitting on Fallout:76 a lot more than I have, but 4 was just...inferior in some aspects.

    What about the fact that (as far as I know) there are no NPC quest givers and that all quest info is given through notes, holotapes, and terminals? No game that relies on exposition dumps to tell its story can be considered good writing. The way I see it, all the fun that can be had in F76 can be had equally in any other game that lets you play with friends. It's interchangeable with Borderlands, ESO, WoW, etc. And when I think about playing single player, without NPCs, stuck in a world of heavy-handed exposition, all I can think about F76 is that it's a shell of what Fallout is supposed to be, made that way by developers who would rather roll over for the lowest common denominator than make a game that long time fans would stand by. Fallout 4 was an omen for the direction they're taking. And knowing that Bethesda plans to use the Creation Engine to make ES6 just makes the future look worse. 

    Have you ever played Subnautica? No NPCs and I have to say one of the most fascinating games I’ve ever played. Passive storytelling can be really powerful. Subnautica only used voice messages and datapads to tell it’s story and it was pretty awesome.
    • 697 posts
    November 13, 2018 12:51 AM EST

    Decumus Scotti said: I’m not a big fan of Fallout, but I can’t help but feel Bethesda is being judged a bit too harshly here. First of all, they’re trying something new, so of course there will be bugs. Hell, there were a ton of bugs when Skyrim came out, and that was a type of game they had experience with. The whole point of the Beta is to smooth out those bugs before release. Personally I don’t think it’s a cash grab. Bethesda has never needed that in the past and I don’t think they ever will. At the end of the day, if there are some bad decisions made I believe they were most likely made for the right reasons, and not maliciously. If you can’t support the management(i.e Bethesda Softworks) then at least support the developers over at Bethesda Studios, because I’m 100% sure they actually care about Fallout. In Todd Howard we trust. ‘Nuff said

    My issue isn't that they're trying something new; it's that they're trying something so new that they don't know what it is, and that they expect us to pay full price to test it for them. A one-month beta is not long enough to test or fix a game. Maybe Zenimax is pressuring Bethesda to push it out. I don't where exactly the issue lies in the chain of command, but its blatantly there. Even in the best case scenario, F76 is a FO4 overhaul mod that shits all over the lore. Again. They could have been developing an original MMO title for three years, but they chose the easy way out and instead bastardaized an established and loved franchise.

    • 697 posts
    November 13, 2018 12:58 AM EST

    Decumus Scotti said:

    Have you ever played Subnautica? No NPCs and I have to say one of the most fascinating games I’ve ever played. Passive storytelling can be really powerful. Subnautica only used voice messages and datapads to tell it’s story and it was pretty awesome.

    I haven't, but it's probably just my own preference that I can't stand exposition delivered through tapes, notes, etc. That's been a staple in gaming for far too long. It's lazy at best, immersion-breaking at worst. There's no belivability in people stopping to write notes for no one in particular, especially during times of crisis. 

    • 697 posts
    November 13, 2018 1:27 AM EST

    Dragonborn2021 said:

    I actually have no problem with the new style of questing and storytelling in theory. Of course it's possible that Bethesda will completly fuck it up but I don't think that there's a fundamental problem with the idea. It's actually a rather interesting style that I think could. Could. Add to the experience of playing a Fallout game in a new interesting way. The idea behind it is solid, and with the proper care could be something fascinating, it can create a level of mystery and exploration for each quest that I think games are missing, and to be honest most of the best writing in F4 is in the Terminal Entries, Notes and some of the Holotapes. So...look I'm not going to stand here and say that it's perfect or that Bethesda probably won't fuck it up, but I think it's an interesting idea that could work if Bethesda had the right writers. 

    From what I've seen of playthroughs, it's worked rather well in the early stages of the game. It might be a bit tougher later on or on multiple playthroughs (which is a huge flaw of the system) but...yeah I'm interested and enjoying what I've seen so far. On top of that, as Goldie mentioned, I think that Fallout 76 is going to depend somewhat on the player in the same way Skyrim (which I think has some pretty terrible writing most of the time) has.

    It's an experiment...Bethesda's been pretty open about that, and while they totally fucked up by both making it full price and the entire BETA experience, at least as far as I'm concerned...it's still interesting enough that I'm willing to play it. Not paying anywhere near full price, we've got a deal going down here where I trade in 2 games and get it for $29 (with the base price being $100 in Australia) and that's the only reason I'm paying for it now instead of waiting to see what it's like. Because yeah, this really could be a huge fuck up on every level, I don't fully trust Bethesda's writing to bridge the gap enough, but I'm willing to see what it's like.

    I hope it works in practice then, because having no NPCs sounds like a terrible idea, especially for the writing. There's a world of difference between reading information from a note, and having that information spoken to you by a character. If you don't know who's speaking the words, and in what way, they just won't be as effective. It's like if you found Ulfric's "I fight because I must" speech scrawled on some note in an empty castle in an empty town. That moment would be gone. The note would preclude that moment. You'll have learned what Ulfric said, but not felt it, not experienced it. If I wanted to learn about what happened before I got here, I'd pick up a history book. Luckily Skyrim has both history books and events actively happening in the world around you. I just can't imagine a good story emerging from wandering from one location to the next with no direction beyond whatever messages you find left behind and no characters to add any tension or flavor to the experience. This really isn't a Fallout game. It's a McDonalds toy called Vault Lad.

    • 1438 posts
    November 13, 2018 1:42 AM EST

    Legion said:

    Dragonborn2021 said:

    I would probably argue that it's Fallout 4 without all the stuff that made F4 bad, but both games are (IMO) completely different from Fallout 1 ---? New Vegas. 

    But yeah, this BETA has been, actually quite disgusting in my opinion. I could list all my complaints but it'd be a long list and I don't have the time for it, but to be entirely honest I've been incredibly dismayed at the path Bethesda has taken with it. Just the major ones were putting it behind a pay-wall, having such a limited time to run it, the limited hours, the fact that Xbox users were promised more time and then barely got more time (both the fact that Xbox Users might've got more time and the fact that they didn't are disturbing to me).

    That said...I still think the game is going to be something I enjoy. The Gameplay aspects involve everything I enjoyed about F4 and skipping everything I disliked (the shitty voiced protagonists, the shitty writing for the Main Quest and everything terrible about the dialogue system). That said if F4 had New Vegas or even 3's level of writing and character work I'd be shitting on Fallout:76 a lot more than I have, but 4 was just...inferior in some aspects.

    What about the fact that (as far as I know) there are no NPC quest givers and that all quest info is given through notes, holotapes, and terminals? No game that relies on exposition dumps to tell its story can be considered good writing. The way I see it, all the fun that can be had in F76 can be had equally in any other game that lets you play with friends. It's interchangeable with Borderlands, ESO, WoW, etc. And when I think about playing single player, without NPCs, stuck in a world of heavy-handed exposition, all I can think about F76 is that it's a shell of what Fallout is supposed to be, made that way by developers who would rather roll over for the lowest common denominator than make a game that long time fans would stand by. Fallout 4 was an omen for the direction they're taking. And knowing that Bethesda plans to use the Creation Engine to make ES6 just makes the future look worse. 

    Yeah, I mean, a game wherein all the interaction is through players rebuilding a world and the like is good and all, but yeah

    • 1461 posts
    November 13, 2018 1:59 AM EST

    I hope it works in practice then, because having no NPCs sounds like a terrible idea, especially for the writing. There's a world of difference between reading information from a note, and having that information spoken to you by a character. If you don't know who's speaking the words, and in what way, they just won't be as effective. It's like if you found Ulfric's "I fight because I must" speech scrawled on some note in an empty castle in an empty town. That moment would be gone. The note would preclude that moment. You'll have learned what Ulfric said, but not felt it, not experienced it. If I wanted to learn about what happened before I got here, I'd pick up a history book. Luckily Skyrim has both history books and events actively happening in the world around you. I just can't imagine a good story emerging from wandering from one location to the next with no direction beyond whatever messages you find left behind and no characters to add any tension or flavor to the experience. This really isn't a Fallout game. It's a McDonalds toy called Vault Lad.

    Fair point, and I do know that there are some complaints about the Main Quest (as with just about any post-Oblivion Bethesda game) and some people just can't get into the style that Bethesda's taken. I don't know, for me it's hard to comment much because I've seen some of the Gameplay (a fair chunk actually) and thus seen the way it actually works, and how much effort I think Bethesda's put into writing...but I haven't actually played it myself so I don't know how spread out the good stuff is, I wouldn't put it past Bethesda at this point to have shoved a lot of it into the early areas so the further out you get the lower the quality of the writing gets. 

    Yeah, I might just leave it here and maybe chat about it a bit after I've gotten my hands on the game because I am just giving opinions without playing it so I could do a full 360 by next week. Though I will throw you a link to a couple of Holotape Entries if anyone wanted to hear a few that aren't too spoiler-y (if at all)

    • 623 posts
    November 13, 2018 3:16 AM EST

    So before I you read any further I just wanted to say that I'm not trying to make you like the game, all I've tried to do here is respond to some points with my own views based on what I've played.

    Legion said:

    I haven't, but it's probably just my own preference that I can't stand exposition delivered through tapes, notes, etc. That's been a staple in gaming for far too long. It's lazy at best, immersion-breaking at worst. There's no belivability in people stopping to write notes for no one in particular, especially during times of crisis. 

    Most of the notes/holotapes I've found were either written/recorded before the bombs or years after so they aren't exactly in "times of crisis". I've found holotapes where a group were detailing their progress through what is effectivally a practical exam that the Responders hold for their combat devision, or the tapes that DB linked to are done specifically to leave a record of what it was like following the bombs so that future generations have an understanding of it and was something people volunteered to do. The holotapes for quests I've followed are instructions left for people to undergo training in case the Responders aren't available. I can't speak for all of the notes in the game since I focused mainly on the North-Eastern part of the map, but those I have read have/give their reasons for existing.

    Also exposition can be just as bad if not worse when done poorly with actual characters since games will often just have the person start spewing information which is not how most people talk. I can accept a note/letter or book doing it since they are designed to provide information (sometimes detailed).

    Legion said:

    I hope it works in practice then, because having no NPCs sounds like a terrible idea, especially for the writing. There's a world of difference between reading information from a note, and having that information spoken to you by a character. If you don't know who's speaking the words, and in what way, they just won't be as effective. 

    Did you ever play or hear anyone talking about Journey? If you haven't it was a game with no NPCs and it was widely loved. Having no NPCs can work amazingly if written well, I just doubt Bethesda is capable of that. So I agree that it wasn't their greatest idea.

    The voiced holotapes are about as close as you can get to having the person standing in front of you just without animations. You can ask why then don't they just have humans standing in front of you, good question and I think the point is that we as the players are supposed to be the humans who are rebuilding. It's naive of Bethesda to think that people in an online game wont just be dicks to each other but based on the Beta it seems to be working, whether this continues after release is another thing.

    Overall it requires a different style of writting for this to work. I'd also argue against it being "lazy" since it requires a lot of effort to make it work, now whether Bethesda has managed that is another question that there will be differing opinions on. 

    • 166 posts
    November 13, 2018 8:26 AM EST

    I saw a few of the comments here but didn't go through all of them. I 'll also give my two cents on the whole FO76 / Bethesda thing after playing a few hours the FO76 BETA.

    From Bethesda I 've played Oblivion, Skyrim, I 've seen Morrowind gameplay but haven't played the game myself and a few hours of the FO76 BETA the last few days and never played any other FO game before.

    1) What I think about Bethesda is that they are putting out some good games but they are not good when it comes to technical things in any of their games ever, in fact they are pretty bad but can get away with it due to modding and reputation. Anyone who is modding their game should be aware of what 's going on inside of it and how many fixes there are (for example USLEEP only fixes over a thousand things if I 'm not mistaken, memory patches, optimization, textures etc).

    2) Going from Morrowind / Oblivion to Skyrim we can notice a sharp drop in the content / roleplay / length of the storylines, they are very simplified and some things for older gamers are borderline stupid and make little sense (very fast progress in the ranks, CoW questline, Companions etc) I am starting today a playthrough and I know that the best time I will have in Skyrim while questing will be from all the big quest mods I have and not the ones from Bethesda.

    3) I 've been a MMO player for over 15 years and I have never played any FO title before so I played FO76 only from the perspective of a mmo player. My impression is that from its technical side it is a trainwreck and you cannot have such a game in 2018 from such a company. From the content and if it could be fun to play I could say yes if you have others to play with it would be one of those games that you go in with some friends for 1-2 hours to have some fun but nothing more than that and I wouldn't invest any more time or play it seriously, that's for me at least. My general impression was that if they were to keep this game in development for some more it could come out as a good game regardless of people who might not like the genre of the game.

    The big question is why are these happening. Well my take on is:

    For 1: Not sure, only thing I can think of is maybe laziness so they are just patching their engine since "it just works" and also in order to save as much time and resources as possible which is good for the company but sometimes it might affect the product.

    For 2: Well where the gaming industry is heading will not leave Bethesda's games unaffected. The trend is to make simple games that even kids will be able to play and what kids who play have are parents with money that will buy the game. Do not hold much hope from now on to see games with sorylines that have some actual depth like older ES titles (in Skyrim CoW is 8 quests that can be done in like 3 hours or less and you become Archmage...).

    For 3: Well due to above making an online game without modding would be something harder(?) I guess for Bethesda. The only thing FO76 needed was more time in development and another BETA in order for them to hear what is wrong and then work on improving and fixing all these issues that should not exist in a game coming out from such a company in 2018. Another thing is that this is a game clearly catering to console and it felt to me that it was ported poorly on PC. The whole thing was just rushed. Rushed was the only thing that came to mind after trying the game. I do not blame Bethesda entirely for the state that FO76 is coming out because when the game will or should come out I don't think it is just on them if at all. All in all the game just needed more time in development and testing before it came out and it would be a pretty OK game but now it is rushed at least that's how it felt to me in order to get a few things, perks and please a few people.


    This post was edited by Duvain at November 13, 2018 8:30 AM EST
    • 86 posts
    November 13, 2018 10:00 PM EST
    Legion said:

    Decumus Scotti said:

    Have you ever played Subnautica? No NPCs and I have to say one of the most fascinating games I’ve ever played. Passive storytelling can be really powerful. Subnautica only used voice messages and datapads to tell it’s story and it was pretty awesome.

    I haven't, but it's probably just my own preference that I can't stand exposition delivered through tapes, notes, etc. That's been a staple in gaming for far too long. It's lazy at best, immersion-breaking at worst. There's no belivability in people stopping to write notes for no one in particular, especially during times of crisis. 

    . Well I guess that’s a disagreement of preference. Personally I find that type of storytelling very appealing and effective, depending on the type of environment you are trying to create. I’d imagine in an apocalyptic world it could be used to great effect.
    • 697 posts
    November 14, 2018 2:45 PM EST

    Golden Fool said:

    So before I you read any further I just wanted to say that I'm not trying to make you like the game, all I've tried to do here is respond to some points with my own views based on what I've played.

    Legion said:

    I haven't, but it's probably just my own preference that I can't stand exposition delivered through tapes, notes, etc. That's been a staple in gaming for far too long. It's lazy at best, immersion-breaking at worst. There's no belivability in people stopping to write notes for no one in particular, especially during times of crisis. 

    Most of the notes/holotapes I've found were either written/recorded before the bombs or years after so they aren't exactly in "times of crisis". I've found holotapes where a group were detailing their progress through what is effectivally a practical exam that the Responders hold for their combat devision, or the tapes that DB linked to are done specifically to leave a record of what it was like following the bombs so that future generations have an understanding of it and was something people volunteered to do. The holotapes for quests I've followed are instructions left for people to undergo training in case the Responders aren't available. I can't speak for all of the notes in the game since I focused mainly on the North-Eastern part of the map, but those I have read have/give their reasons for existing.

    Also exposition can be just as bad if not worse when done poorly with actual characters since games will often just have the person start spewing information which is not how most people talk. I can accept a note/letter or book doing it since they are designed to provide information (sometimes detailed).

    Right, fair enough, I was over-generalizing and generally talking out of my ass. And good point about the spoken exposition. Poorly written is poorly written, no matter how it's delivered.

    Legion said:

    I hope it works in practice then, because having no NPCs sounds like a terrible idea, especially for the writing. There's a world of difference between reading information from a note, and having that information spoken to you by a character. If you don't know who's speaking the words, and in what way, they just won't be as effective. 

    Did you ever play or hear anyone talking about Journey? If you haven't it was a game with no NPCs and it was widely loved. Having no NPCs can work amazingly if written well, I just doubt Bethesda is capable of that. So I agree that it wasn't their greatest idea.

    The voiced holotapes are about as close as you can get to having the person standing in front of you just without animations. You can ask why then don't they just have humans standing in front of you, good question and I think the point is that we as the players are supposed to be the humans who are rebuilding. It's naive of Bethesda to think that people in an online game wont just be dicks to each other but based on the Beta it seems to be working, whether this continues after release is another thing.

    Overall it requires a different style of writting for this to work. I'd also argue against it being "lazy" since it requires a lot of effort to make it work, now whether Bethesda has managed that is another question that there will be differing opinions on. 

    I'm making this point exceptionally poorly. I originally said this:

    No game that relies on exposition dumps to tell its story can be considered good writing. 

    which was a fucking stupid way to express a thought I hadn't fully put together yet. What I'm trying to say is that by removing NPCs from the game, it removes a part of the world that's always been there. It takes away sources of exposition and world building that have always been present. So now I don't know how to respond to your other thread, cause I don't know if NPCs are part of what defines a Fallout game. But anyway, good points, lots to think about. 

     

    • 623 posts
    November 14, 2018 3:08 PM EST

    Legion said:

    I'm making this point exceptionally poorly. I originally said this:

    No game that relies on exposition dumps to tell its story can be considered good writing. 

    which was a fucking stupid way to express a thought I hadn't fully put together yet. What I'm trying to say is that by removing NPCs from the game, it removes a part of the world that's always been there. It takes away sources of exposition and world building that have always been present. So now I don't know how to respond to your other thread, cause I don't know if NPCs are part of what defines a Fallout game. But anyway, good points, lots to think about. 

    Ahh I get where you're coming from with that. And I agree they have taken away from the game and unless the other sources are improved; over past games, to make up for it then the game will feel lacking. I'll be honest, the first server I loaded into following launch had 2 other players; a level 1 standing outside the vault and a level 30 off doing his own thing, and just from the knowledge that there weren't a bunch of players running around, the game felt so much emptier then any other Fallout I've played. It was in that moment that the lack of human NPCs really stood out for me, since there weren't any players to make up for that. Now every server I've loaded into since has been full (or close to full) and the knowledge that I can run into someone else has made them feel (at least to me) more lively. In past Fallout games regardless of how much time I spent exploring on my own I always new that there was a place I could go to see "people" in the world, but Fallout 76 is reliant on the players to fill that role and in several months time when the numbers have dropped off it will be harder for that to be there for every player.