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• Karver the Lorc

  

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  August 19, 2015 4:06 AM EDT

  Hey, guys. I don´t know how you, but I really love this character. I would dare to say that it is one of the best characters Bioware created. I´m not counting Varric, because Varric is just hilarious, but Kreia...that´s something different. Sometimes I feel she is somewhat similar to Palpatine. Manipulative, cunning but she isn´t cruel as Palpatine. She values when the Exile outsmarts enemies.

  So tell me, what do you think about this character? Like her or despise her? What do you think about her teachings that Force is some insidious god and that Force as whole deserves to die? Also, have anyone pieced together who she is? More precisely was?

  I think I pieced it together. Her real name is Arren Kae and there are few lines that points to that.

  1. There is mentioned that Arren Kae was Jedi Librarian and her teachings were often unorthodox and Kreia aknowledges that few times.

  2. Few times in game it was said that Revan´s first teacher was unorthodox Jedi librarian and that he seeked council with this Jedi just before he went to Mandalorian Wars. Krei in game admits that she was Revan´s first and last teacher.

  3. Arren Kae was exiled from Jedi Order for unorthodox teachings, following Revan to war and falling in love with man. This information is actually told by Handmaiden who will tell you, that her father was Echani but her mother was Jedi. Her father abondened his duties so he could fight alongside her mother in Mandalorian Wars. When you speak with Kreia about Handmaiden, she tells you that her mother was called Arren Kae and she died at Malachor V, which is more or less true I think.

  Thoughts?

• SpookyBorn2021

  

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  August 19, 2015 6:09 AM EDT

  I've never dived into who she is to be honest. It's interesting though, the idea of Kreia being Handmaiden's Mother, that might explain the interactions between them during the end. I haven't really been fond of taking her along for my playthroughs yet. As a pure Light and then a pure Dark character her mentality hasn't really meshed with them. From a purely gameplay perspective she's probably the most powerful follower. Extra Experience, Force Bond and a High Level Consular.

  Her ideas about the Force are particularly intriguing, even as little as I know about it. I find the idea of balance in the Force interesting and her balance is no Light Side and no Dark Side, no Force at all. I don't what effect the disappearance of the Force would have on existence but I bet it wouldn't be pretty. 

• Karver the Lorc

  

  • 649 posts
   

  August 19, 2015 6:39 AM EDT

  She is really one powerful companion and I used her a lot in my recent playthrough (Build is coming soon).

  Everything points that she is really Handmaiden´s mother. And regarding death of the Force...well, it is hard to say. It is said that Force is in every living creature, plant or object. So theoreticaly, if there is no Force, there is no life.

  On the other hand, Luke´s New Order met race of beings from another galaxy. These Yuzhuan Vongs were absolutely dead to Force. If Jedi looked at them via Force, they would be completely invisible to him.

  Then there is the Force Wound the Exile is. That one is really tough to explain. Meetra Surik (Canon Exile) severed her connection from Force to protect herself from the agony that was cause by Shadow Mass Generator at Malachor V. Through that, she became a walking Force Wound. It is really hard to explain, but the Exile doesn´t really have connection to Force anymore. It is the nature of Force Wound that she is...absorbing the Force from everything around her thus being able to manipulate force. Exile is pretty much just a leech.

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  August 19, 2015 2:03 PM EDT

  *Spoilers in this comment*

  Kreia's definitely one of my favorite characters in Star Wars. Even though she ends up being the game's final boss and you have to defeat her, you have to acknowledge that she was right about mostly everything. Regardless of your views on the Force, you can't deny that the majority of conflicts in Star Wars are between different groups of Force Sensitives (mainly Jedi vs Sith). Since we have proof that it's possible to survive without a connection to the Force, cutting the galaxy off from it may very well be a big step towards galactic peace.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  August 19, 2015 2:38 PM EDT

  You are right, just as she is. Every major conflict in that Galaxy was started because of Jedi, because they turned on other Jedi thus becoming Sith. There was a thousand years peace just because Darth Bane came up with Rule of Two, but that was just delaying the inevitable. Another war between Sith and Jedi.

  As for cutting of galaxy from the Force...as I mentioned above, it is very debatable what would the outcome look like. The living planet Zenoma Sekot cut of Yuzhuan Vongs from Force, but just look what happened to them after that. They embraced pain, suffering and war as their religion and destroyed their own galaxy, thus they had to travel to another.

  It is likely possible to live without Force...but Kreia can´t be 100% sure that the universe will be better without it.

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  August 19, 2015 2:56 PM EDT

  A fair point, though Kreia was under the impression that the end result would be like the Exile, which is understandable since this was thousands of years before contact with the Vong. That being said, I imagine she would've loved to study them if she knew of their existence.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  August 19, 2015 3:17 PM EDT

  Result would be like Exile? You mean that everyone would feed on the Force? But if there was no Force...hmm. That´s interesting view.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  August 19, 2015 3:24 PM EDT

  Also, note that some Vongs were spotted in the Old Republic. Not enough to be recognized though.

  Also, do you remember one of the battle stories from Canderous? Where he was talking about battle in field of asteroids? He said something about hitting asteroid which turned to be some kind of creature in slumber and when it was awaken it flew unbelievable fast away. Well, that was Yuzhuan Vong living ship or some creature they grew.

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  August 20, 2015 12:20 PM EDT

  Never knew that the Vong were sighted in the Old Republic. Well, I knew about that Canderous' story, but I didn't know that was supposed to be a Vong ship. Regardless, my point still stands. Kreia wouldn't know about how the Vong are completely cut off from the Force.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  August 20, 2015 12:47 PM EDT

  True, but there is still question of the outcome of her actions. My understanding of her goal is that she wanted to create so multiply Force Wound, with on big (her and Exile), that would create massive echo killing the Force.

  But what exactly would it meant?

• Tom

  

  • 624 posts
   

  August 20, 2015 1:24 PM EDT

  Like Revan, she is a character who was both Jedi and Sith and Neither. She breaks down the dumb ideas George Lucas came up with and exemplified, along with the Old Republic games, that there are more views and philosophies about life and the Force than what the Jedi and the Sith believe.

  That maybe Jedi can be the villains and Sith the heroes.

  Maybe we'd be better off without the Jedi or the Sith.

• Karver the Lorc

  

  • 649 posts
   

  August 20, 2015 2:57 PM EDT

  It is true that Old Republic made the Star Wars universe much larger. I heard that one of the reasons to create Old Republic was because Lucas always had to have last word. That means, the movies are considered highest canon, Clone Wars series second highest. Then everything else.

  From the point of simple people it is understandable that universe might be a better place without Jedi, Sith and Force. But when a Jedi/Sith starts to think the same way...That´s either crazy or true.

  What do you think would happen when the Force would be "killed" by the echo of Force Wound?

• Paws

  

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  August 21, 2015 12:35 AM EDT

  The voice actor for Kreia was superb all the way through. Did she win an award for it? I seem to recall something like that. Out of all Star Wars content I've soaked up over the years, I rank some of Kreia's dialogue up there with the very best. The bitterness in her voice as she says how she speaks with voice that will never move others or the subtle way in which she warns you (correctly as it turns out) that you can do more harm by doing good than by leaving people to fight their own battles stays with many years on. Nice discussion Karver!

• Karver the Lorc

  

  • 649 posts
   

  August 21, 2015 1:03 AM EDT

  She won some award in 2005 I think. Best Character Award or something similar to that. Not necceserily award for voice acting.

  That bitternes...That´s one of the reasons why she is so interesting. She believes that helping people makes both sides weaker and she despises unnecessary violence. She isn´t adherently cruel, but she approves of "rational choices", like when Exile and her are talking abou Visas and Exile say something like "Maybe I could convince her to sacrifice herself in battle against her master to weaken him."

  And what do you think about her philosophy, Phil?

• Albino

  

  • 179 posts
   

  August 21, 2015 3:42 AM EDT

  No idea. That would be uncharted territory for Star Wars (unless some EU stuff covers it that I'm not aware of).

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  August 21, 2015 3:43 AM EDT

  In terms of rpgs I love shades of grey to morality. In terms of Star Wars I really enjoy the "Grey Jedi" philosophy or anything which challenges the basic concept of light side = good, darkside = bad. Not that I don't like that, mind you, just enjoy it when it gets messed with and it's quite rare to see in more mainstream SW.

  In real life? No. I prefer Shepard's lesson to Garrus:

  "You can't predict how people will react, Garrus, but you can control how you'll respond. In the end, that's what really matters."

  That's the What would Shepard do school of philosophy. The answer is normally "bang, ok?"

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  August 21, 2015 4:09 AM EDT

  I´m glad I´m not the only one who finds Grey Jedies interesting. Though if you compare Jolee Bindo and Kreia you´ll see how these two are completely different. You might say that Jolee is "good" Grey Jedi and Kreia is the "bad" Grey Jedi. But in the end, it all depends on the point of view.

  By Kreia´s philosophy I meant the death of the Force. What do you think of that? If there were no Jedi and Sith, would there be still conflict? Also what do you think would exactly happen if the Force would suddenly vanish from whole galaxy or even universe?

  Would be just "bang, ok?" ? I think that she might be crazy or right, but I don´t believe she really knows what would happen if the Force would be "killed"

• Paws

  

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  August 21, 2015 4:26 AM EDT

  Jolee was a lying fucker in the end wasn't he? The dark side ending told me he was just using the Grey Jedi thing as an excuse to be a crotchety old goat

  I liekd Kreia for being true to her beliefs in the same way I liked the whole "Revan turned to the dark side for the greater good" philosophy she introduced us to. Yet I don't like the idea that the force can be wounded. I've never particularly liked it even central as it is to the story of the game.

  Everyone has there own metaphor or simile for the Force. Mine is that it's like a pure body of water, crystal clear accept right near the bottom. It doesn't take much to stir up the sediment and muddy the water but emoving the water entirely is not the solution, it just leaves a barren lake bed.

• Karver the Lorc

  

  • 649 posts
   

  August 21, 2015 4:46 AM EDT

  Not sure about Jolee, don´t rememer much about him to be honest.

  Revan turned to the dark side for the greater good...Well, that´s hard to say. He pretty much fall to the dark side during Mandalorian Wars. After that, he encountered the Sith Emperor on Dromund Kaas who dominatet his mind and told him to conquer the Republic. But once he left the Empire space, the Emperor lost his influence on Revan and Malak, but they went on conquering the Republic anyway. At the beginning they thought it was their idea, but Revan later remembered the encounter with Emperor, so he was conquering the "weak" Republic so they could stand united against the Sith Empire.

  Barren lake bed. I like that metaphor. But that would mean, that everything that lived in that lake, would die.

• Tom

  

  • 624 posts
   

  August 21, 2015 5:19 PM EDT

  Damn near nothing for the vast majority of the denizens of the galaxy.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  August 22, 2015 3:33 AM EDT

  At the time of Sith Lords, Kreia's assertion that Revan may have been serving a greater good was all we had to go on. Of course it's all changed now but at the time it was epic!

  About the death of the force, that's how I see it. Life creates it, makes it grow. It surrounds us and penetrates us etc, etc. I can't see one existing without the other I guess.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  August 22, 2015 4:04 AM EDT

  So Symbiosis like Qui-Gon said in Episode 1, eh?

• Paws

  

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  August 22, 2015 4:22 AM EDT

  Say what you want about The Phantom Menace but it did two things perfectly. The first is the Duel of the Fates scene, the second is Qui-Gon Jinn That line about symbiosis and midichlorians and what-not only worked for me because Liam Neeson sold me on it

• Karver the Lorc

  

  • 649 posts
   

  August 22, 2015 4:27 AM EDT

  :D

  Well I absolutely have no problem with Episode 1. I think that the explanation of Force there was much better than in the older movies.