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• Paws

  

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  October 29, 2015 7:33 PM EDT

  So you're saying that this is an instance of the unreliable narrator within the Witcher universe rather than an explanation of the developer's intentions delivered by proxy as is the case in most game series?

  To clarify, as a story telling mechanic any line related to a mission, lore or plot device delivered by Liara T'soni in the Mass Effect series is and should be taken as actual fact. In contrast, any line of dialogue delivered by any npc in TES Skyrim related to a mission, lore or plot device should be taken with a pinch of salt.

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

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  October 29, 2015 8:24 PM EDT

  Romanced Yen. Screw Djinns and destiny, I just got a thing for raven-haired and tight bodysuits :P
  
  But I was actually talking about the book. Not too far in, haven't seen Yen (assuming she's in it). Just the first two: Foltest's incest daughter, Snaggletooth, and Beauty and the Beast.
• Bryn

  

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  October 30, 2015 12:25 AM EDT

  She is further in the book, in the story appropriately named "The Last Wish"
• Bryn

  

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  October 30, 2015 12:29 AM EDT

  1. Considering how a majority of the "divinity" related things come from the other planes and are misinterpreted, its a safe assumption he could be lumped in with that.
  
  2. Liars is wrong on a great many things... Most prominently anything related to asari, protheans, Cerberus, Shepard's feelings for her (NO MEANS NO! STOP IT!)
• Paws

  

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  October 30, 2015 1:52 AM EDT

  No doubt about Liara not always being correct, but in each instance where she is wrong the game tells you she is. In Mass Effect 3 she fulfils the role of Mr Exposition, a narrator by proxy. When she isn't doing this the game clues you in rather quickly as to which way to interpret her. For example, any dialogue in the first half of the game involving The Catalyst is ordained from on high through the mouth piece of T'soni. The game is making you listen to Liara because she holds the secrets of the McGuffin. Yet later when we meet Javik we discover Liara is not always right, but the game immediately points this out by having Liara herself going through a "gosh, I didn't know" monologue. In this way the events tell you that the exception proves the rule. That we as an audience can trust what she says unless she herself tells us not to.

  The way I interpreted the role of Professor Shakeslock was in that exact same way. His purpose was to inform the audience and leave no doubt in their minds as to Gaunter's true nature. Also, he makes it clear that O'Dimm predates the Conjunction of Spheres by many millennia.

  The unreliable narrator trope is actually pretty rare, especially to the extent TES does it. Even though the game books within The Witcher's world make it clear they are just the opinions of their respective authors, full of bias and personal idiosyncrasies, yet in most cases of dialogue the exposition can be trusted. I think the Oxenfurt prof could be seen as a biased source but I don't think he was intended to be one.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  October 30, 2015 2:25 AM EDT

  Well, my problem is that for some reason, this demon doesn´t fit to the witcher world for me. You know, pretty much all creatures in Witcher comes from Celtic folk lore, but crossroads demons are more of christian thing.

  As for the professor calling him the devil, that actually doesn´t have to mean Satan. Again, this collides with the witcher world again. There is no hell there, there is very little talk about afterlife, so devil doesn´t have to mean the same thing for them as for us. Devil can be another word for demon. 

  The crossroads demon. Thanks, Phil, now you made my head spin. Have to think about that. When you meet only one individual it doesn´t mean there isn´t whole species. But he certainly gives you an impression he´s...special. This is really tough.

• Paws

  

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  October 30, 2015 2:51 AM EDT

  I know what you mean, it's like the role of an absolute evil doesn't translate into a grimdark setting because there is no antithesis, an absolute good. By it's very nature the world of the witcher undoubtedly contains absolute evil, full as it is with monsters who have no ecological niche. Yet that only really works when dealing with the non-sentient species, the ghouls, hags and wraiths.

  Moral ambiguity immediately asserts itself again when dealing with sentient (or sapient, forget which) creatures. Werewolf, vampires or ancient leshans have some degree of choice and consequence whenever they get a spotlight on them.

  So with Guanter it makes me wonder if his "absolute evil" is connected in some way with his other titles such as Man of Glass or Master Mirror. I wondered if perhaps his role isn't as much as the embodiment of evil, but rather it's reflection. I'm not sure how this works or even if this was intended, but my interpretation is in how he treats the individuals he deals with. Although he is sinister as fuck whenever Geralt speaks to him, he is nevertheless fair and consistent with the witcher throughout the story. Yet he is an absolute demon with others, like the spoon guy and Olgierd.

  It's like he's a force of evil for those who summon him, bring evil upon themselves. He doesn't randomly cause havoc and chaos like a horseman of the apocalypse or plague maiden. In that sense he is only a danger to those who deal with him and invite that darkness in.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  October 30, 2015 3:16 AM EDT

  Reflection of the evil? That´s really interesting theory, Phil.

  It could mean he´s an reflection of mankind. Cause if there is truly some evil in Witcher, I think it´s the humans. I mean, how many times Witchers have to step in because some humans fucked up something really badly?

  And that´s why there isn´t hell in the world of witcher. Have you noticed how bad deeds and bad feelings often bring things back from life? Curse them, turn them into something bad or whatever.

  You would think that Wild Hunt is evil because they have the power to destroy the world, but humans are just as bad in my opinion.

• Paws

  

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  October 30, 2015 4:30 AM EDT

  I've just started reading book three, Baptism of Fire and already there has been a reference to hell and the devil. Now I'm looking for it I wonder what other references I've missed so far. So I'm not sure that the concept of hell isn't absent entirely in the witcherverse.

  I see your point about bad stuff like curses being the result of humanity's evil. The Tower of Mice quest is a perfect example of mankind's evil and the horrific fate of that woman. Eaten alive by rats is pretty grim as far as deaths go, up there with being burnt at the stake.

  So O'Dimm being a manifestation or reflection of human evil fits within the setting better when see through that lens rather than the Christian definition of good and bad. I'm with you there, it's like having a devil figure on whom all the world's ills can be blamed is far to convenient and it doesn't work.

  Yet it goes back to the professor and what he discovered. In my mind that is clearly an example of Mr Exposition rather than an example of the unreliable narrator, yet if it is treated as word-of-god lore then it makes the character of Gaunter both more defined and harder to accept.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  October 30, 2015 4:53 AM EDT

  You´ve found a reference to hell? Damn, I don´t remember a single mention. I found it really weird that both in the games and books there is very little mention about afterlife.

  Only thing I know is that they aknowledge Morana, Slavonic goddess of death, who is associated with some kind of underworld.

  But I guess that most people rather not think about afterlife considering that so many are coming back as ghosts, wraiths and whatnots.

  Everytime I play a game, I´m trying not to see everything in black and white. Gaunter is definetely demon and I hate demons, but that doesn´t mean I don´t like this character or that I consider him truly evil.

  If he´s reflection of the evil/mankind, it´s only his nature. Yeah, he´s sinister and all that, and in the end, the decision was quite easy for me, but there is certainly more to him.

  At the beginning I thought he is just from another sphere, but if he predates Conjunction it can mean two things. Either he was in witcher´s world prior to that, or he´s that powerful he could travel between spheres even before the Conjuction.

  I mean, think about it. He can control time. And time and space often come in one package, right? I´m not saying that this theory is perfect. Ciri is called Mistress of Time and Space (I think), but she can just manipulate the space (teleporation). But who knows how powerful she can be in the end? What if one of her "jumps" move her forward in time?

  And that brings me back to Gaunter. Because he certainly gives me feeling "he´s not of this world", but if he was there before Conjuction...that s really tough.

• Bryn

  

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  October 30, 2015 5:31 AM EDT

  Him saying that he predated the conjunction is BS and that irritated me to no end cause no one even remembers that far back. It was only a few centuries ago, but it was countless generations ago, and their form of studying and archeology is primitive, him having any proof on the matter would just be hunches with no damning evidence.
• Bryn

  

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  October 30, 2015 5:33 AM EDT

  All that is remembered I there was no magic or monsters... That's it...
• Bryn

  

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  October 30, 2015 5:40 AM EDT

  And as I've said before, Gaunter is too helpful to be considered evil.... What's evil about helping Ciri, finding the woman you love free of charge, giving you the ability to never hunger...
  
  He also can't be a reflection of humanity as he doesn't undersea them or their concepts... Especially not personal debts or honor or love, core parts of humans, he just knows they have them and exploits them.
• Paws

  

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  October 30, 2015 6:37 AM EDT

  Yeah, the quotes are:

  Temeria and Redania are reduced to havoc, hell, and much slaughter...

  'What is it going to be? What am I to tell him?' 'To go to hell', snapped Milva, lifting her belt, from which hung a heavy purse and a hunting knife. 'And you can go to hell, too, Aglais.'

  Some say Codringher was dabbling in black magic and concocting poisons; that he had made a pact with the devil, so the devil's fire consumed him.

  Hah, that last one reminds me of Olgierd.

  As for Ciri, the art book says:

  The Wild Hunt has long stalked the steps of the witcher and his loved ones. It kidnapped Yennefer and has tracked Ciri through dozens of different times and spaces. 

  That might help your theory. He could be a post-Conjunction entity who manipulated time or he could be a native primordial entity, or an entity to whom the constraints of planar travel are meaningless. However he does say that Ciri is beyond even his reach, so that might throw a spanner in the works.

  Either way it is cool that we are able to speculate

• Bryn

  

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  October 30, 2015 6:42 AM EDT

  Ciri in Witcher 3 does state she traveled to a world where a battle was fought from flying ships and metal tubes... Most are taking that as world war 2, CDPR has said its possible.
• Paws

  

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  October 30, 2015 6:46 AM EDT

  You referring to that line in which he asks Geralt why people feel the need to repay their debts? I took that to be a rhetorical question, a slightly tongue in cheek breaking of the fourth wall and the illusion of choice within the computer game. Because in order to hear that dialogue you must have bought the dlc so therefore have a vested interested in playing the expansion. Seeing as the only way to play the expansion is to agree to Olgierd for Gaunter, O'Dimm can say with 100% certainty that he knew you'd come. By referencing the motive of repaying the favour he granted in helping Geralt find Yen and later saving him on the ship, Master Mirror can keep Geralt's  possible motive for agreeing with Gaunter grounded.

  I didn't take it literally but I can see the value of taking that at face value. However, he shows more than a passing familiarity with human emotions as evidenced by his advise in how to deal with Ciri, make her laugh and in not letting Ciri feel sold out.

• Paws

  

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  October 30, 2015 6:48 AM EDT

  I remember that, thought it was really cool. Geralt was like wtf?!

• Bryn

  

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  October 30, 2015 6:50 AM EDT

  But he treats that as more a process to ensure she lives, any semi sane person would think its common knowledge cause they love their daughter... Yet he feels the need to discuss it as if he wouldn't understand and in a clinical way.
• Paws

  

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  October 30, 2015 7:03 AM EDT

  Him saying that he predated the conjunction is BS and that irritated me to no end cause no one even remembers that far back. It was only a few centuries ago, but it was countless generations ago, and their form of studying and archeology is primitive, him having any proof on the matter would just be hunches with no damning evidence.

  I don't know, we see Shani performing cpr and indicate almost modern medical knowledge. In the books we see Oxenfurt Academy as Continent-leading centre of scientific research with a somewhat unstable mechanical waste disposal system, along with ecologists who have categorised flora and fauna into distinct genus and families.

  The setting in the books can be quite anachronistic, so I didn't bat an eyelid when a professor told me that he studied folktales, countless tomes and travelled to the Nilfgaardian Library to find records of the Man of Glass dating back thousands of years.

  So how does that fit in with the lore? The Northern Realms are only a few centuries old aren't they? Yet the men of Nilfgaard and the south must have a long history, no?
• Karver the Lorc

  

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  October 30, 2015 7:33 AM EDT

  Hm. Line like: "Go to hell" isn´t really a reference that there is some form of hell. Witcher´s world is similar to ours in that, that nobody there knows what´s after death. Even those who "return" don´t know anything because they pretty much never left, they just decided or were forced to stay.

  There are just few words that can be considered pretty much common in any fantasy. "Hell, oblivion, void." Even if there is no such a thing like a hell in fantasy, they still use it because...I really don´t know why. Because the author is just used to the stereotype?

  And that about Ciri is cool, I thought I remember something like that. 

  But I wanted to ask. Gaunter talks about Ciri if you still haven´t found her? What does he say? I noticed you and Bryn mentioned it few times.

• Paws

  

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  October 30, 2015 7:41 AM EDT

  It's at 3:15 dude

  True enough about using "hell" as a curse word, that interpretation is sound. Is there a rise in a concept of eternal damnation and eternal paradise as the Order of the Flaming Rose and faith in the Eternal Fire spreads? The intro scene whenever you load a game seems to suggest that the believers in this faith think mankind is getting it's just deserts, implying a hell on earth sort of thing.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  October 30, 2015 7:43 AM EDT

  Btw, have you noticed this, guys? Gaunter O´Dimm. GO´D.

• Paws

  

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  October 30, 2015 7:51 AM EDT

   lol. Maybe it's Man of Glass. MOG. He's secretly a cat.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  October 30, 2015 7:58 AM EDT

  Yeah....I will go with the GO´D, Phil.

• Bryn

  

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  October 30, 2015 8:52 AM EDT

  Old testament god >:D