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A reason why you killed (or didn't kill) Paarthurnax

    • 168 posts
    April 9, 2015 3:33 PM EDT

    I really want to know some reason you killed/didn't kill Paarthurnax. 

    Me? I never killed him and the reason is simple. The Blades want you to kill him because of his dark past. But killing the dragon who taught you how to shout through the Greybeards as well as aiding you in your quests is the same to kill your Kung-Fu teacher, who teaches you everything he knows just because he has a dark past. Delphine says that killing Paarthurnax is an act of justice and she doesn't care if the dragon helped you during your journey. Believe me, if upholding justice means being so damn unreasonable, irrational and immoral, f*** justice. But no, what she is suggesting is not justice. The more correct term is vengeance. She simply wants you to kill him because of what he did to her ancestors. And then what? And then Paarthurnax's followers will go exact revenge on you. Your family will then resent them, exacting revenge on them, and this vicious cycle of hatred will continue. Again, if this is justice, f*** it. This is true for Skyrim; you kill Paarthurnax, the Greybeards, if they were foolish people, will kill you and then the Blades will exact revenge on them. Ulfric, who has a past with the Greybeards, will avenge them, so on so forth. So after you killed Paarthurnax with pleasure, why doesn't this cycle seem familiar to you? Because the Greybeards are true men of peace, and they will not think of vengeance. They resent you, but dare not take revenge. These people are the ones I truly respect. So basically, you killing that lowlife when you can simply prevent him from doing anything means you are willing to put yourself at risk just to exact revenge, i.e, being an idiot.

    This is justice: 1 million people say kill Paarthurnax, while only 1 say spare him, so we must kill him. This is not justice: He killed millions of humans and enslaved millions more, he is therefore a tyrant and must die, even though he aided the humans during the Dragon War as well as fighting against his own nature by following The Way of The Voice. This is called being: 1. selfish, 2. unreasonable, 3. short-sighted, and 4. just plain stupid.

    And finally, I love to compare Delphine with Isran. She hates dragons as much as he hates vampires. However, Delphine wants you to kill Paarthurnax, the only benevolent dragon on Tamriel while Isran spared the life of Serana after she helped you, him and the Dawnguard to defeat Harkon and let her live in his stinky fortress. So, who am I to fulfill the Blades grudge against the one creature that gives me the best shot at defeating the greatest threat to the world because they don't like what he did in the past? Besides what do the Blades do for you? Nothing. The Blades don't help you at all really, except for telling you to learn Dragonrend and teaching the Call Dragon shout. All they do is to send you to do their bidding: Prove to me you are Dragonborn, go to the Thalmor Embassy and find anything that link the Thalmor to the dragons, go find Esbern, help us rebuild, go kill dragons for us. Then there's the whole "kill Paarthunax or GTFO Sky Haven Temple" thing. The Blades were meant to serve the Dragonborn, not the other way around.

    What about you?

    • 131 posts
    April 9, 2015 4:11 PM EDT
    I agree with you completely.
    • 125 posts
    April 9, 2015 4:23 PM EDT

    I only ever killed him once (despite feeling like a jerk afterwards) because I was curious about what would happen if I sided with the Blades. After the deed was done and I returned to Delphine to deliver the news, I expected her to say something like "Listen... I know it was hard... but justice had to be done. And justice is never easy." You know, something that would address how emotionally difficult it was to kill the dragon that had aided me in the destruction of Alduin.

    Instead she greeted me with "Good, glad to have you back on our side" and didn't even care about the weight of the deed. Smooth as sandpaper, Delphine. -_- Since then I've just finished the quest with console commands.

    • 253 posts
    April 9, 2015 4:30 PM EDT

    Hmm. That would require me to get that far in the main quest in the first place...

  • April 9, 2015 4:49 PM EDT

    I've never killed him when Ezben said that if i wanted there help i had to kill My Seifu i showed them the door

    • 207 posts
    April 9, 2015 4:58 PM EDT

    A reason why I don't kill Paarthurnax? I usually don't need reasons to NOT kill someone...

    • 95 posts
    April 9, 2015 5:08 PM EDT

    When I reformed the blades before that quest came up, I was really pissed. I'll be doing this with my Volkihar Titan next anyways, so here is what I did:

    Delphine: -tells me to go kill Paarthurnax-

    Me: -uses Soul Tear and Nightingales strife after drinking a fortify destruction potion-

    Blades members: -begin to attack me like a swarm of bugs-

    Me: -activates my titans "Enhanced" ability (Uses Berserk Rage with all the Fortify Unarmed bonuses and Necromage, along with one other benefit)-

    Me: -starts attacking every single one of the blades members, choke-slamming and German Suplexing every single one of them (WWE pun intended)-

    Me: -stairs down Esbern -

    Delphine: -attacks with two swords-

    Me: -Punches Delphine across the face repeatedly-

    Delphine: -starts crawling away in agony-

    Esbern: -tries to flee-

    Me: -walks up and punches Esbern repeatedly-

    Esbern: -starts crawling like Delphine-

    Me: Never... EVER... Tell ME to kill Paarthurnax.. You serve the Dragonborn, which is me bitch!

    Me: -takes on "Mist Form" and leaves the pile of corpses behind-

    All this was done on Legendary, and man was it fun!

    • 1217 posts
    April 9, 2015 9:11 PM EDT

    I never would have considered killing Paarth until the end of the main quest line. That's when I became much less comfortable with trusting him and after that point, about half of my character that have gotten that far have killed him.

    • 87 posts
    April 9, 2015 9:19 PM EDT

    Kudos. Imagine passing someone in the street and then having to justify your decision not to kill him in cold blood.

    • 743 posts
    April 10, 2015 12:34 AM EDT

    Personally, I can't stand Delphine. The Blades purpose is to serve the Dragonborn, not force him or her to do ridiculous demands. If I prove myself to you by killing a dragon, infiltrating a Thalmor Embassy, save your most valuable asset, and draw my blood so you can have your hide out, I shouldn't have to do anything else. Especially because of their so called oath to serve the Dragon born. So no, I never killed Parthy, and never will.

    • 457 posts
    April 10, 2015 1:24 AM EDT
    Even in a video game, I have a lot of trouble betraying trust freely given and in good faith. Paarthurnaax has spent ages up on that mountain preparing to right the wrongs he made and overcome his very nature as a dragon... that has to count for something.

    I respect his willingness and persistence in trying to atone for past deeds. It's more likely that I will die (50 years from now with any luck) before Paarthurnax kicks the bucket by my hand--plus, my kids would disown me xD
    • 1595 posts
    April 10, 2015 3:26 AM EDT

  • April 10, 2015 6:04 PM EDT

    I had a moral issue with old Parthy I didnt kill him and never will the Greybeards are right the blades are bloodthirsty and want nothing but revenge. Nothing to do with justice. Bethesda do not take into account the emotional ties that the role player sometimes feel through affiliation with certain characters ie. Parthy. For me it was similar to the dilemma faced in  the previous game of the series Oblivion. Your friends Baurus and Jauffree all perish with others, at the battle of Bruma, they can of course be saved using healing spells bloody big healing spells however it is very difficult.  But  they are both Characters you meet early in game and form a kind of bond with. It is this artificial bond that prevented me from killing Old Parthy 

    • 743 posts
    April 10, 2015 9:06 PM EDT

    That brought back a sad memory with old Jauffree dying.

    • 367 posts
    April 12, 2015 12:02 PM EDT

    Delphine is the Avatars equilivent of Colonel Miles. She don't want Parrthunax dead... She just wants that Iron node on the top of the throat of the world. Sory but that just don't sit right with me. Paarthunax spent years atoning for his sins and helped over throw Alduin. What did Delphine do? Rant and kick out like a spoilt brat. I side with Parrthunax and the greybeards every time. I don't even bother with any Paarthunax fix mods over principle. Skyhaven can colapse and rot for all I care.
    I spend most of my time on the blog over at the story corner. My main character dislikes her from the start. All I got to do is decide on the best way for Delphine to die...

    • 1595 posts
    April 12, 2015 2:49 PM EDT

    • 1217 posts
    April 12, 2015 2:51 PM EDT

    You can't keep doing this to us, Phil. You gotta say somethin', man...

    I'm goin' crazy!

    • 1595 posts
    April 12, 2015 2:59 PM EDT

    You know what I'd say and how it'd be received Borom  I'd be like Jurgen Windcaller except my disputants would number in the hundreds.

    • 1217 posts
    April 12, 2015 3:03 PM EDT

    C'mon, we've already made it to two pages without any wild debates  That's even after I said I killed Paarth more than once!

    • 1595 posts
    April 12, 2015 3:19 PM EDT

    Alright. I'll try and phrase a reply that disguises my contempt at the ego driven and hypocritical nature of some of the answers I've seen here.  Wish me luck.

    • 1217 posts
    April 12, 2015 3:24 PM EDT

    I'll back you ;D

  • April 12, 2015 3:32 PM EDT

    You'd also probably fare worse than ole' Jurgen.

    • 457 posts
    April 12, 2015 3:49 PM EDT
    I think I just got called an ego driven hypocrite. Sweet, check that off the list...

    Now off to church, then my 5:00 mugging/purse-snatching from a little old lady, and I can call this day done xD
    • 1217 posts
    April 12, 2015 3:51 PM EDT
    Hahahaha. Yeah, I don't know if anyone could be considered less ego-driven than Shin.
    • 1595 posts
    April 12, 2015 4:32 PM EDT

    Although it depends on the character I'm playing, these days old Paarthy dies as often as he survives in my games. It's hard getting over that emotional attachment the game fosters between you and the dragon but killing him is probably the right thing to do.

    This emotional attachment is something which tends to cloud judgement. How many times have we seen the argument "Delphine wants Paarthurnax dead, she should die for that crime"? Besides the blatant hypocrisy of such a sentiment, it highlights another problem: Delphine herself.

    I've been pretty vocal in my support for Delphine before but I think it bears repeating now. Of all the characters we see in Skyrim, Delphine is perhaps the most real. She wears her heart on her sleeve and it is easy to relate to why she acts the way she does when you consider what she's been through.

    Although she is a lifelong member of the Blades, she is also more than that. She is a paladin of the organisation, a paradigm of their values and a firm believer in what they represent. Yet she saw everything she held dear get destroyed by the Aldmeri Dominion in the Great War, her friends and comrades killed, leaving her on the run and living in constant fear. Thirty odd years of living like this has left her angry, bitter and paranoid.

    None of this is a secret. She tells you and apologises for her paranoia and being slow to trust. yet somehow most people still hate her. Why? Probably because she directly confronts the player's ego and dares speak her mind. More than that, she stubbornly demands Paarthurnax's death.

    So we already know her views on the Blades, why would it come as any shock she wants to see every dragon dead? After all, the Blades started out as dragon slayers and what survives of their organisation has more dragon lore and expertise on the subject than any group alive. Without an Emperor to protect, Delphine reverts the order to their original mission, making the Blades a relevant organisation in modern Tamriel.

    Part of the problem is the inconsistency, how both Esbern and Delphine demand Paarthurnax's death but not Ohdaviing's. This is more than likely a game oversight and a problem with how Skyrim handles their version of player choice. So I don't think it is worth dwelling on why they are so single minded about Paarthy.

    So onto the meat of the argument. Why do the Blades want Paarthurnax dead and does he deserve it? This is by far the hardest part of the debate, probably because we see it through our limited mortal minds. That Paarthurnax committed terrible acts of mass arson, people burning, hunting humans for sport and any  number of other imagined possible atrocities is probably true. He was Alduin's lieutenant after all and lived at a time when such things were considered normal. This is a point worth remembering because he is a dovah, such things are in his nature. Even his name has a dominance and cruel connotation to it.

    Yet to counter all that, he was also the one chosen by Kynareth to teach mortals to defend themselves by giving them the gift of the voice. He also fought alongside them and overcame his draconic nature through meditation. His motives for doing so are left ambiguous, with Ohdaviing describing his goals as the "tyranny of the Way of the Voice" and Delphine remarking that his allegiance switch "makes him worse, not better."

    From the other dragon's point of view, The Way of the Voice is a tyranny. It stops them from being who and what they are, like declawing a cat or removing a serpent's fangs. It is morally abhorrent from their perspective. As for Delphine's point, surely one can concede she has one? How can one trust a traitor, especially one who's name - their very being - is one of ambition? Paarthurnax himself concedes the logic of the Blades but tempers it with his moral philosophy: "Is it better to be born good or overcome one's evil nature through great effort?"

    That's a good question Paarth. Maybe you have repaid your debt. Or maybe you are a ticking time-bomb who will one day lose the struggle with his nature. That aside, how do we measure justice when talking about an immortal creature who's concept of time is far different than our own? To us the Dragon War was many millennia ago, but to the dragon that passage of years may feel like a blink of the eye or an eternity. it's hard to say, but we know from the dialogue of other immortals that time has no real meaning to them.

    It is tempting to use Nazi war criminals as examples but I know whoever I chose to use would be a decision I'd later regret. However, if we can imagine a heinous war crime committed in our lifetime or our parent's lifetime that has gone un-punished because the perpetrator now works for us, how would we feel as a society?

    If that person is charming and we like him, does that give him a free pass? Let's not let our personal feelings for Paarthurnax stand in the way of facts.