Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Gregonav Acquiane

  

  • 26 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 10:15 PM EST

  Lately I've been exploring the lore regarding necromancy and have discovered a number of incredible lore-fitting mods which enhance you ability to use it in-game (namely: The Vile Art of Necromancy, Corpse Preparation, and Undeath), and as I roleplay various characters who use it, I've been thinking a lot about the moral implications of it. On one hand, it can be used in a benign fashion, and, if it came into popular acceptance, even for good purposes which benefit society. On the other hand, there is a definite and positive correlation between necromancy and wrongdoing (i. e., killing specifically for the purpose of using their corpse for necromancy, etc.). What are your thoughts on this?

• Deleted Member

  
   

  February 25, 2015 10:36 PM EST

  I'd say it's just a darker side of restoration, but I'm sure people would disagree with me.
• Gregonav Acquiane

  

  • 26 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 10:40 PM EST

  Now that's an interesting idea. I'd never thought of it like that. 

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 10:51 PM EST

  Necromancy gets a bad rep, but in many places in Tamriel, trafficking with daedra is seen as even worse.  

• Chronicler

  

  • 93 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 10:57 PM EST

  I just think there's something wrong with taking one's body and indoctrinating it. Particularly when on considers the religious/spiritual implications. What happens to the soul of the deceased? Are they disturbed in the afterlife? I think necromancy is disdained because it is fundamentally disturbing, whether or not it is wrong. 

• Deleted Member

  
   

  February 25, 2015 10:58 PM EST

  Oh yeah. Both deal with the body. Necromancy is basically magical anatomy. Think Mary Shelly's Frankenstein.
• ShinJin

  

  • 457 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:00 PM EST

  There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so. If you aren't creating the bodies for it, and if you're using the dead for good... it's good. I'll admit that in-game, however, your typical necromancer is pretty evil.
  
  The issue I struggle with in the Conjuration school is Soul Trapping... As a lover of Enchanting I use it all the time, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's ethically sound to hang on to a soul that's meant for other places.
• Gregonav Acquiane

  

  • 26 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:04 PM EST

  This gives me tons of ideas for roleplay: a truly good necromancer who uses the art for good purposes and holds that it is simply a different side of restoration, a bad necromancer that holds that he is simply using a different side of restoration but consistently uses it to heinous ends, etc.

• Gregonav Acquiane

  

  • 26 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:08 PM EST

  I've thought about the soul aspect of this a lot. UESP defines necromancy as "the manipulation of the souls or corpses of the undead." Because of the "soul" side of this definition, this makes it seem similar to storing souls in soul gems and using them to enchant items. If they are related, this has a couple of interesting implications. A: Does this mean that enchanting is a form of necromancy? and B: since this means that the souls go to the soul cairn, as with soul gems, what are the moral implications of that (taking into account that a "good" user of might only use it on people who deserve it)?

• Gregonav Acquiane

  

  • 26 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:10 PM EST

  And there is the soul cairn...

• Gregonav Acquiane

  

  • 26 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:12 PM EST

  And in response to your first statement about good and bad: I agree, but in order to simplify a complex subject, I generally the standard Dungeons and Dragons alignments in roleplaying, purely for classification, with none of the alignments being stigmatized.

• MadHatter

  

  • 44 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:16 PM EST

  Theres nothing good about manipulating souls and defiling the dead. Its not misunderstood.. its fundamentally a grotesque art. Personally, I wouldnt take too kindly to someone using my dead uncle as a tool. Fun to play yes but I think being players of a game, we would feel a little more tolerance towards the art of necromancy if not deliberate joy in it. Thinking from a personal perspective though, id be hard pressed not to mangle someone who commits such atrocities as defiling my loved ones corpses.
• ShinJin

  

  • 457 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:16 PM EST

  I've played necromantic good guys and enjoyed the playstyle immensely, but I have to admit... as a concept, it's still pretty icky xD
• Gregonav Acquiane

  

  • 26 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:19 PM EST

  What about, say, a "donation to magical science?"

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:23 PM EST

  This is reminding me of The Black Arts On Trial all over again 

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:28 PM EST

  Sure, because of cultural beliefs that dead bodies are to be respected and treated well.

  What if I come from a culture that considers the body to be merely a shell, and once someone has died "they" no longer inhabit the body? From my perspective, using the body to, I don't know, haul heavy stuff is no more disgusting that donating that person's coat to charity. They're not using it anymore; why not put it to good use?

• Zach

  

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  February 25, 2015 11:30 PM EST

  One thing to remember with souls gems is that, while we are so used to using the Black Star, basically everyone else in skyrim, other than necromancers, uses normal soul gems, which are filled with the souls of animals. So the whole deal with the Soul Cairn and trapped souls only really applies to the victims of malicious necromancers.

• Gregonav Acquiane

  

  • 26 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:36 PM EST

  That's another interesting point. The immense respect for the dead is purely a cultural phenomenon. It could also be possible for a culture to arise that considers a necromantic use of dead bodies an honor. If you don't adhere adhere to the ARKAYic (see what I did there?) cultural practices, then the only remaining issues are the general "ickiness" of it and the correlation (but not necessarily causation) between necromancy and murder. I think if it were more widely accepted, the second issue would stop being an issue because necromancers could perform the art on naturally deceased corpses.

• Gregonav Acquiane

  

  • 26 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:40 PM EST

  Hah I loved that book. I was also a rather big fan of Traven himself, despite his rather closed-minded views on Necromancy. Whenever I play the Oblivion mages guild questline, I always like to roleplay that my character grows rather fond of him and is an alcoholic for a while after Traven sacrifices himself.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  February 25, 2015 11:52 PM EST

   I liked the old dude too.

  I think it's worth bearing in mind cultural viewpoints too. Although we see them one way, the draugr of Skyrim, for example, are just carrying out their sacred duty. From their point of view we are the profane defilers.

• ShinJin

  

  • 457 posts
   

  February 26, 2015 12:05 AM EST

  Traven was the bees knees ;D
  
  Are draugr carrying out a duty? Goldir constantly says, as he's hacking away at his dead ancesters, "We aren't killing them. They're already dead. We're sending them back to Sovngard!" Seems like he wasn't to cool with it. Then again, I suppose a necromancer was manipulating them against him.
• Gregonav Acquiane

  

  • 26 posts
   

  February 26, 2015 12:11 AM EST

  Yeah the exact nature of the draugr has always eluded me. Time to consult the lore!
• Breaker

  

  • 41 posts
   

  February 26, 2015 12:17 AM EST

  I think I remember reading somewhere something about the Draugr specifically being the Nords who worshiped dragons, and they were cursed with undeath for that. I have no idea where I read it though, so I may be wrong.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  February 26, 2015 12:20 AM EST

  That's the loading screen. Amongst the Draugr is the primary source, but have a look at the Dragon Cult Re-Examined discussion in the lore group too.

  The whole ancient nord concept of eternal life revolves around this practice.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  February 26, 2015 2:43 AM EST

  In terms of TES necromancy, it really is just another part of magic. In one of those lore books, it says that the magic schools are just artificial constructs, designed to simplify magical study and teaching. Since the founder of the Mages Guild was sort of in a Dumbledore vs. Voldemort feud with Mannimarco, it's no wonder it became demonized among the civilized, but I'm sure it accomplished quite a lot, progressing medicine and Restoration studies.

  I can't remember what the actual implications of "raising" a corpse actually does in TES lore, though. Is it simply imbuing a corpse with your own will, where you move it as easily as you move your own body? Is it using simple spirits to "drive" the empty body like a car? Are you making a slave out of the deceased's eternal soul? Previously, we seem to be talking about probing dead people (no necrophile), but the proper raising is the moral issue here.