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• Chris

  

  • 1441 posts
   

  July 18, 2014 6:45 PM EDT

  Now, may of us are split down the line concerning Ulfric Stormcloak. Due to Free-Winter's interaction with the player, the Grey Quarter being pretty much a hybrid of slum and ghetto, Argonians being made to live outside, and what he did to the Forsworn (granted, they worship Hagravens and allow them to perform horrific rituals on them, but still), ergo, locking them for their religious beliefs, which is hypocritical as he is doing the same for Nords and Talos, while many see him as a pawn of the Thalmor, and others see him as a misunderstood man, who seeks to reclaim the Nordic Empire of his forefathers, give mead to everyone, and have Nords rule themselves.
  
  What do you guys think?
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 1:24 PM EST

  The problem is we just don't know what the Dominion's strength is. And their war is, if anything, more religious than that of the Stormcloaks. So if the Empire was turning the tide, why beg for peace(beg here meaning the many concessions made)? It's clear the Nords won't have minded continuing the fight. The WGC was submission, plain and simple. So did the Empire submit to a *perceived* greater power, or a real greater power? Further, now that the Civil War is on, the Empire is being whittled down again, whe the Thalmor only grows in power.
  
  It is an issue that we don't know how powerful the Dominion is, but I don't think it's wise to count on them being in a weakened state. I'd actually be really interested in a TES VI with a story about the Beutfiul and their campaign against the Thalmor. But there's no reason for a second war to have happened because right now the Thalmor has everything it wants without fighting! So no, I don't think they're interested invading, with the Empire(and via the Empire, Skyrim) under their thumb.
  
  Belonging to the Empire isn't weakening Skyrim, war with the Empire is weakening them both.
• Vaaljørn

  

  • 92 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 1:27 PM EST

  And the game presents one question: Should Skyrim be free. Beth gave us no other information beyond what is necessary to make that particular decision.
  
  And yet, most turn it into either: Is Ulfric a douche, or can we beat the AD (which we have yet to see in full force - other than Northwatch, but they were easy to defeat).

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 1:34 PM EST

  Why should the unkown be ignored, though? It's taken into account for Skyrim's benefit as much as anything else. Should Skyrim have free worship? Yes. Will Skyrim still think it's worth it if they get picked off by the AD? What are the odds that the Empire(Not the Dominion, the Empire) will fight back to restore those freedoms to its people? I can't imagine why these questions aren't worth considering.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 1:36 PM EST

  The nature if gaming being what it is, we do have to accept that a lot of people's choices are based on "Who's nice to me." So just like people get a kick out of murdering Nazeem for being a tool, they turn away from Ulfric for as little as a line of dialogue.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 1:39 PM EST

  Where's the evidence that the choice had anything to do with Imperisl backing? Nords have been content with succession for generations, and if a division of opinion is stopping the current Moot, why didn't it stop the one that elected Torygg?
• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 1:39 PM EST

  Worth considering, perhaps. But any "answers" are based on so little information that they're essentially opinions.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 1:43 PM EST

  True. What else could it be for, though? Discussions like this are fun, and they help role play a lot, but we're not going to hit on some profound Truth, y'know?
• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 1:44 PM EST

  Well, it's established that the Empire has had influence in the Blue Palace for a long time. Torygg certainly seemed to be friendly with them, otherwise they wouldn't be backing his widow so strongly. The Empire probably didn't actively influence people's decisions or anything, but I hardly think it's a stretch to assume it was in the Empire's best interests to keep the title of High King moving down the succession line.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 1:47 PM EST

  The amusing thing being, I didn't like Ulfric until I heard all his lines of dialogue. So, I guess some people react to things differently. ;D

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 1:53 PM EST

  I've never taken issue with his dialogue either, though Galmar is as subtle as a brick and generally unlikeable, even with his weird Nordic charm.
• Vaaljørn

  

  • 92 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:07 PM EST

  They're worth considering, but they are too ambiguous and fact-less to be the basis for a solid, rational decision. "What if's" and "this could possibly happen" can't rule the day.

  Will Skyrim still think it's worth it if they get picked off by the AD?

  See, we have enough information to form a reasonable answer. Knowing the Nordic mentality, yeah, I'm pretty sure they would. Most, not all, Nords would rather die with honor than being told not to worship whom they consider at the top of the pantheon. Their history bears it out. Their general theology bears it out.

  What are the odds that the Empire(Not the Dominion, the Empire) will fight back to restore those freedoms to its people?

  Unknown. We have no idea if they are willing or able. All we know from in-game is that Mede sent chests of gold to keep the Jarls quiet about the White-Gold Concordat. 

  Like I said, those questions are worth considering, but are too ambiguous and fact-less to be the basis for a solid, rational decision. 

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:14 PM EST

  The more I've really looked at it, the more Galmar has grown on me. He's just such a grumpy jerk, but he's always showing these flashes of depth that I love. Seriously, some of the stuff he says while out in the Stormcloak camps is like poetry.

  And his speech before the Battle of Whiterun never fails to get me pumped to go kill some Legion dogs.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:17 PM EST

  I may come to like him once I get over the Serpentstone Island thing. It took a bit to see how he wasn't trying to send me to my death.
• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:19 PM EST

  Is it any worse than Rikke's "go take over a fort all by yourself" quest? Yeah, the Dovahkiin is a total B.A. who can do it in their sleep, but she doesn't know that.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:24 PM EST

  It's not the quest, it's the dialogue after. You should know from the Delphine discussion that I don't hold "Go do this by yourself while I eat pie" against the NPCs.
• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:26 PM EST

  I guess it's just a Nord thing. I don't really hold it against him.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:29 PM EST

  Yes, that Nord charm. ;)
• Veloth the Prophet

  

  • 641 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:35 PM EST

  Exactly, because the EMPIRE backed him that means the majority of Nord leadership is pro union.

• SoulLess

  

  • 207 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:38 PM EST

  I know, you wrote this long ago, but i'm reading now through this thread and want to ask: what sort of moral dilemma has the silver hand? They are bandits with silver weapons and werewolves caged in their hideouts!

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:39 PM EST

  It would have to be the other way around: because there was no argument against the empire backed king, it suggests, well, not dissension at least, if not pro-union.
• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:44 PM EST

  The fact that they fight werewolves, dark creatures that prey on mortals. There is something good about them, despite them acting like mere bandits. Same thing is about Forsworn, they have that sad tale of being betrayed and used for years when they just wanted to live in peace... 

  The game doesn't give you a choice to join the either faction (wrongfully in case of Silver Hand IMO). There are, however, some redeeming qualities for both factions, something that can't be said about the Thalmor

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:48 PM EST

  I hate talking about this stuff because we have so little information; all we know is that Torygg was selected by the Moot, that his father was High King before him, and that the Empire was OK with Torygg's family holding the throne. At some point, Ulfric made a push for independence that didn't really get anywhere.

  That's it. Absolutely anything else you want to claim about that time is probably made up.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:51 PM EST

  Noting that the only non hostile werewolves encountered are the Companions. Sinding just wants you to justify his murder. The Silver Hand could have been an interesting, maybe less honorable alternative to the Companions.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 2:52 PM EST

  Pretty much.