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Does Skyrim (and similar games) encourage its players to believe

    • 485 posts
    January 11, 2014 9:54 PM EST

    I'm interested in seeing what people's thoughts are on this one. What I often see in discussions on TES races are players who are 100% convinced that all members of a race share the same  traits. Nords are stereotyped as racist brutes, Khajiits are known for thievery, and the High Elves are all seen as arrogant. As players immerse themselves in a world that plays into these stereotypes at every level, could the argument be made that this game, and others like it, leave its players more susceptible to believing in real life stereotypes?

    • 485 posts
    January 11, 2014 10:17 PM EST

    I'd hate to be the fool arguing from such an indefensible position as "racism is correct"

    • 75 posts
    January 11, 2014 10:18 PM EST

    Well there is this nice Altmer in Windhelm, he is the owner of the stables.

    • 39 posts
    January 11, 2014 10:23 PM EST
    I always do everything I can to break stereotypes. Khajiit warriors, nord mages, and altmer assassins. Anything that goes against common rules or stereotypes is what I love breaking
    • 485 posts
    January 11, 2014 10:24 PM EST

    I'm prepared to have the mods kill this topic the moment it even comes close to getting out of hand. 

    • 1913 posts
    January 11, 2014 10:25 PM EST
    The thing is that every stereotype is based off of a little truth... The problem is, do you believe every person of a race/group/religion/etc. is like this? And if you say yes... You're just wrong, cause not everyone is exactly the same
    • 1913 posts
    January 11, 2014 10:26 PM EST
    Tango, I have eyes on target, weapons locked and loaded just give the signal
  • January 11, 2014 10:35 PM EST
    Stereotypes are a bit more evident in TES than real life, but that's for a few reasons (well these are my theories at least...).

    1.) They need the races to be diverse, so assigning general characteristics will help diversify the race from other races.

    2.) They're actually separate species, so the differences are evident and real (Elves do live longer so they have a different psychology. The Argonians are connected to the Hist so they also have a vastly different psychology. At least typically. There are still some hot-headed Altmer or some physically badass Bosmer). I have trouble phrasing this...

    If you need a break from TES stereotypes, just look at Lady Allena Benoch, the badass Bosmer sword-master. Or Azra Nightwielder, the Redguard Shadowmage. Or Ahzidal, the Nordic master enchanter. Or Rugdumph, the..."soft-spoken" Orc noble.
    • 485 posts
    January 11, 2014 10:37 PM EST

    Theres a little more to it than that. Stereotypes are for the most part based on confirmation bias.  For example: A random Nord man believes all Khajiit are thieves and cutthroats. Do Khajiit thieves infact exist? Yes they do, but for this man to believe all or most of them are thieves is absurd. Confirmation bias assures he'll ignore the multitude of Khajiit he encounters with none of those traits, and use the one instance his sweet roll was stolen to prove what he believes is true. 

  • January 11, 2014 10:41 PM EST

    I'd just like to say, I do not think Racial Discrimination is alright, or acceptable. I do my best to not allow a person's ethnic background influence my opinion of them. I will admit that sometimes stereotypes, even non-racial stereotypes,  pop into my head when I first meet someone. If anyone claims that that doesn't happen, that person is a liar. I do my best to look at a person based on their character. 

    If I have made that unclear, and that has led some to have an incorrect opinion of me, that is no one's fault but mine. I just want to set the record straight. Thank you, Ben, for posting that comment, and making an opportunity.

    This will be the extent of what I will post about this.  

     

     

    • 89 posts
    January 11, 2014 10:55 PM EST

    I tend to think that TES tends to reflect real stereotypes. Stereotypes do come from somewhere, even if the source is obsolete or false. But you see it in Skyrim. The Khajiiti caravaneerswish they were treated better, but acknowledge that many of their kind are in fact thieves, and they are adept at it. Many Nords are bitter, somewhat ignorant racists, and you meet many in-game. You also meet cultured, very learned Nords, as well as all of the examples already cited. In real life this is the case. You will meet people who fit the stereotypes about their race, or gender, or orientation, or creed, or religion, or whatever. And you will meet people who will totally break those conventions.

    • 194 posts
    January 11, 2014 11:51 PM EST

    No, because in real life stereotypes are generated by "lifestyle choices", not race. Race will come into play, but it's nowhere near as important as body language, temperament/behavior, clothing, tattoos/accessories, etc.

    • 485 posts
    January 12, 2014 1:17 AM EST

    What do you mean by lifestyle choices?

    • 158 posts
    January 12, 2014 2:19 AM EST
    If anything, I think Skyrim has taken many steps forward in flouting the stereotypes. In many RPGs and fantasy universes, Orcs are considered straightforwardly evil and subhuman, for example, and in Skyrim they most certainly are not. The ways in which race is handled in Skyrim are complicated, not as an actual reflection of the real world, but certainly a more accurate reflection of the complexities than a great deal of fantasy.
    • 158 posts
    January 12, 2014 2:22 AM EST
    just look at Kirkbride saying that he wrote a lot of Redguard with the Black Panthers in mind, attempting to imagine a version of a black imperialism. That's the kind of inversion of racial stereotypes that Bethesda has gotten very good at. The Dunmer were previously slave-holding evil bums, and now they're the butt of Nord racism.
    • 253 posts
    January 12, 2014 2:31 AM EST

    I say no to this. While each race in Skyrim has stereotypes, there are also plenty of examples from each race that break the said stereotypes. 

    • 194 posts
    January 12, 2014 2:54 AM EST

    I explained. Read above. The list.

    It's not about the things you can't choose... It's about the things you can.

    • 485 posts
    January 12, 2014 5:14 AM EST

    We're all influenced by our entertainment whether its television, music, or video games etc. In most anything you enjoy, especially if it comes from television, a cultural message is put out that often times go unnoticed because we seldom ask ourselves if the way the characters act represent anything close to true life. 

    • 485 posts
    January 12, 2014 5:18 AM EST

    But stereotypes are blanket statements made about an entire group of people. It would be absurd to believe all members of a racial group make the same lifestyle choices, if I'm understanding this statement correctly. 

    • 158 posts
    January 12, 2014 8:55 AM EST
    I agree with Curse - there are a number of influences we receive from media of which we are completely unconscious. THere have been a number of studies shown that even among people with black acquaintances and friends, when presented with the exact same resume labeled with a "white" sounding name or a "black" sounding name, employers will have a bias toward whites. These are not people who express any racist attitudes, nor would they define themselves as racist. But they've imbibed a number of cultural attitudes subconsciously that affect their decision making, even when they're unaware of it.
    There was another study done where a young man was obviously using wire cutters on a bike chain to 'liberate' a bike. When the young man was white, large numbers of passers by completely ignored him - when interviewed, they said that they figured the bike was his, and that there had been some difficulty with his lock. When the young man was black, they repeatedly stopped to interrogate him or called the police - they automatically assumed it was stealing. Gee, wonder if that has anything to do with the prevalent image of the "black robber" or "black thug" in TV and film?

    None of us are aware of the conditioning we receive on that level - the media influences us in all sorts of ways.
    • 158 posts
    January 12, 2014 8:56 AM EST
    see what i posted above about the hiring and resumes - in those cases, they never even met the candidates. the only difference was in the names. that has nothing to do with behavior or lifestyle choices.
    • 158 posts
    January 12, 2014 9:03 AM EST
    Another instance - the Falmer are meant to be monstrous, enemies that you can kill without compunction. But then there goes Dawnguard, giving them a sympathetic backstory and explaining why and how they became the way they are - not because they're evil, but because they're in a sense, medieval post-apocalyptic for their civilization. Bethesda does a great job of introducing cultural relativity - the idea that it is minorities in a particular location who are targeted, but that those same minorities can be the racist majorities in power elsewhere.

    I do think there's an implied element of classism with the High Elves too - the idea that they're all obsessed with attractiveness and fine dress, that they feel their cultural achievements, their architecture, are superior, seems more to me to be a "high art" kind of classism. Y'know, the uneducated rabble can't appreciate the refined things in life. Plus, of course, the racism on top.

    If anything, Skyrim has generated a great deal of controversy and argument around the subject of racism, which I would say has gone a long way toward undermining stereotyping, because it's forcing people to engage on this topic and think these issues through in ways they may not have had to do before. Team Stormcloak and Team Empire have done a great service in that way, IMO.
    • 1483 posts
    January 12, 2014 9:06 AM EST

    I believe there is a strict line distinguishing Elder Scrolls and real life races. The thing to consider there is that races in ES universe are different in both physical, mental and cultural aspects, they are different species. The phrase "we're all human" doesn't work there. Humanity has not faced similar situation yet and so we can't really say how will we react (I suppose some bigotry would be in place). Another thing is that racial stereotypes in ES are more pronounced and hold true in a lot more cases than those in real life. For example, Khajiit. Sure, they are not all thieves and smugglers but the majority are and it leads to a certain initial distrust when dealing with Khajiit - something that can make the player more susceptible to the real life racial stereotypes. On the other hand, the game has people in all races who do not fit into the corresponding stereotype and from that point of view helps people not to give in to those stereotypes in real life. In the end I think it totally depends on a person. Bethesda had done an amazing job keeping everything grey and it's up to you to make a choice both in game and in real life, if basing your thoughts on the game.

    • 149 posts
    January 12, 2014 1:14 PM EST

    Some of the stereotypes, I think, come from game design. Nords were originally set up as warriors, High Elves as mages, Argonians as thieves... 

    The differences allow players to assume different roles. Once within a role, they could conform to or break their role's norm.

    • 8 posts
    January 12, 2014 10:01 PM EST
    Isn't thus like suggesting that playing violent videogames makes people more violent? A racist person is going to take any chance they can get to reinforce their ignorant beliefs, same way a violent person is going to find an opportunity to be violent.