Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Tataunka

  

  • 91 posts
   

  December 22, 2013 8:21 AM EST

  So I've seen a lot of posts lately where people talk about racism and attitudes in Skyrim or the Elder Scrolls' universe as a whole. I figured it'd be cool to have a thread actually devoted to the subject rather than filling up other topic threads with these arguments so here it goes.

  Please feel free to use this thread to post your opinions on race and racism in the world of Tamriel or to argue against or for the opinion of someone else. Feel free to debate heavily if you wish but try to keep it civil. No "You're stupid for X opinion!" or "@#$% you!". If you disagree then state your opinion in a calm fashion, and try to give reasons and facts to support your side of the argument.

  Since I'm starting this thread I'll go first by stating my side of the argument.

  I've noticed a LOT of people saying that the Nords are nothing but racist brutes and condemning them for it. The first thing I'd like to say is that this isn't completely true. Simply by playing Skyrim (or even other Elder Scrolls games) you can see that there are many Nords who are very accepting of other races. Heck one's even married to a wood elf in Riften. This also doesn't seem to be the minority of Nords either. Most in Skyrim seem perfectly content living side by side with other races, beast and mer alike.

  Now I'll admit that the Nords can at times come across as racist in their speech. However, you have to remember a few things here. First and foremost speaking in a derogatory manner is no where near the same as outright violence against someone because of their race. Now I know that even words can be harmful but this leads me to my second point. Skyrim is a medieval style landscape. A landscape where political correctness has absolutely no baring. It's easy for us to try and attach our modern ideals to a world like that of Tamriel but it just doesn't work. In our own world people in medieval times did not use "p.c." terms, period.

  Do you think Scandinavian villagers would have seen a trader from the Middle East and simply acted like he was "one of them"? No, they'd use terms they'd developed to describe his people to describe him. Terms that could possibly be construed as offensive. He'd likely not be trusted, and rightfully so. Skyrim isn't a modern state or country. It's likely that Skyrim's population wouldn't be nearly as large as most countries are in our modern world. Most social centers are simple villages that could easily be decimated by the loss of even a few citizens. In a situation like that it's just not logical to throw trust around without it being earned.

  My third point to be made is that outside one incident in Windhelm outright violence over race is almost NEVER heard or seen in Skyrim. Not by the Nords, not by the Dominion and certainly not by any other group. I despise the Dominion with ever fiber of my being, but I will defend them here by saying that the killing of Talos worshipers is not racist nor is it racially motivated. It is a deplorable act that cannot be justified, but it is motivated by religious tensions (and in my opinion deeper goals by the elves, but that's another argument) NOT racial hatred for the Nords.

  Finally you can see that race doesn't really matter in Skyrim simply by playing the game. EVERY guild and faction in Skyrim, Stormcloaks included, will accept members regardless of race. Now you could say "But Tataunka that's just for game play mechanics!", but you'd be wrong. Walk along any road in Skyrim long enough and you'll find a traveler, sometimes Dark Elf, sometimes Imperial, perhaps even another race who will say "I'm headed to Windhelm to join the rebellion. I may not be a Nord, but Skyrim is my home as much as any Nord's". The lack of diversity in the Stormcloak ranks is likely just laziness on the part of the dev team. I mean honestly it'd take a lot more work to add Stormcloaks of every race into the game. It'd mean more voice acting, more programming, plus they'd have to make the Stormcloak/guard helmets fit non-human races.

  I could continue arguing this point further, but I think I got the main points across here. I will leave you with one final piece of information though seeing as most of my argument here was based solely on Skyrim and the Nords. Play Morrowind. Do it. The Dunmer will more than prove my point that the Nords are no more racist than any other group of people. Morrowind was about as racially divided as you could get and even there the Great Houses, some of the most racially charged factions in gaming history, weren't really all that racist once you got to know them.

  EDIT: After reading through this today I've noticed that I may have come across as saying that racism wasn't racism unless it's violent. This was not my intent at all. I was rather tired while writing this post and may have worded things wrong. Sorry for the mix up. My intention was to state that simple slurs, while racist, are not nearly as harmful as people make them out to be. Most people that argue that their is racism in Skyrim tend to make it sound like the Nords are brutes who absolutely hate all other races and commit violent acts against other races. They are not. They simply don't trust them and rightfully so.

• Elven Dovahkiin

  

  • 34 posts
   

  December 22, 2013 8:15 PM EST

  From what I'm reading here, you seem to be saying that racism=physical violence. The dictionary definition of racism is this: "Discrimination or prejudice based on race." Or, basically, saying someone is stupid and beneath you simply because they have a different culture, or skin colour, to you. There does not need to be physical violence for it to be racism. Physical violence is just extreme cases of it, because you have to really have you head up your butt if you try to hurt someone physically because of their race. 

  You may not think that at all but that's what I got from reading your post, is all.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  December 22, 2013 8:43 PM EST

  Racism is the fabric that holds Elder Scrolls together.

• Drifa Skir

  

  • 158 posts
   

  December 22, 2013 10:13 PM EST

  I second Elven Dovahkiin's comments, and I'd also like to point out that racism is structural - it isn't just physical or verbal violence.  It includes discriminatory or differential access to jobs, living locations, promotions, wages, differences in rates of imprisonment, etc etc. that are systemic and have little or nothing to do with individual choice or actions.  In the activism I do (anti-death penalty work, labor organizing, etc) we talk about the mistaken idea that America is a post-racial society, just because fewer people are "troglodyte racists" - fewer people will bust out the N-word, most people understand that it's no longer socially acceptable to make racist comments to people of color, etc. But it's still hugely prevalent that blacks have much higher arrest rates than whites for drug crimes, despite the fact that whites have higher rates of drug use, etc.  The structural and systemic factors of racism are still enshrined in the economy and the criminal justice system, even if individual attitudes have largely shifted.  

  in the case of Skyrim, it is indeed true that the majority of Nords you interact with are not particularly racist in their speech.  However, it *is* still the case that the majority of the Dunmer in Riften live down below near the Ratway, and it is still the case that the Dunmer in Windhelm live in the rundown ratty part of town. It is still the case that the greater part of the Argonians work in the docks in Windhelm and aren't business owners or home owners.  I'd argue that this is indeed meant to portray structural racism, even if the attitudes aren't overt.  

• Premier Eden

  

  • 152 posts
   

  December 22, 2013 10:55 PM EST

  I have always seen the racism of the Nords as a reaction to the events that lead up to the events of Skyrim. I mean, Their society just went through a world shattering war, which killed a large portion of the population, their way of life is being destroyed, their High King is dead, and they have patrols of foreign hit squads roaming their province.

  I understand that the Nords have never really gotten along with any of the Elvish races, but this usually has played itself out as a few words or slurs here and there, not the wholesale mistrust of a whole section of races, and the barring of races from entering cities.

• Tataunka

  

  • 91 posts
   

  December 23, 2013 1:07 AM EST

  No, no, no I'm not saying that racism has to be violence at all. It may seem that way from my previous post, but that was not my intention. Nor am I trying to say the Nords aren't racist, because they are. What I'm saying is that what we see in Skyrim is not the same as being violently racist or even true discrimination (in most cases) because of race. The Nords throw out slurs yes, but when they do it's not meant to be nearly as venomous as you're making it out to be. Even if you're a Nord guards will talk down to you. They don't use a racial slur because if they did it would mean they were hating on their own race which would just seem silly. Hence Bethesda didn't record a Nord saying "What do you want, Nord?". Sounds stupid doesn't it? Hell the guards even talk trash with the racial bit when talking to Bretons or Imperial players so their barbs certainly aren't simply out of racism. Skyrim's guards just don't like anybody period, and will put inflection on your race simply because it's an easy way to express dislike of an outsider. I'm sure if you could make a fat character in Skyrim the guards would say, "What do you want, fatty?". We'd also probably get more "Did someone steal your sweetroll?" jokes too *snicker*.

  Windhelm is the perfect example of how the Nords handle race. While it's true that the Dunmer are stuck in the Gray Quarter as far as living spaces are concerned, they are not as bad off as everyone seems to believe. They are allowed to sell their wares, even outside the slums as seen with the meat merchant. They also have the only general store in Windhelm which is run by a Dunmer. It's also worth noting that the Nords didn't have to let the Dunmer in period. They did so out of pity for the elves who's home had been destroyed and had nowhere else to go. True they're not trusted, but they shouldn't be. The Dunmer historically haven't had a good track record, especially with the Nords. The two have gone to war multiple times and the Dunmer have shown just as much racism as the Nords. In fact the Dunmer enslaved other races based on their "superiority" to the lesser races. And while in our world you cannot bring the ownership of slaves into a modern conversation, you can with the Dunmer. Dunmer lifespans easily mean that many of the Dunmer in Windhelm or Skyrim as a whole could have been slave owners and even more would surely have lived through it and done nothing. Why then should the Nords trust someone who they know could have ties like that and done things like that?

  The Argonians are another example of necessary racism in Skyrim. The Argonian homeland is run by the An-Xileel, a governmental group that has already kicked all non-Argonians out of Black Marsh and from what I've read intends to wipe out most other races. Hell they've already taken what little of Morrowind that was still liveable from the Dunmer. The Argonians are FAR more racist than any Nord and possibly even the Dunmer. However, this all stems from the Dunmer's enslavement of the Argonians for hundreds of years. Children being abducted, families destroyed, etc. were all common things for Argonians for a long time. Is it so hard then to see that Argonians wouldn't trust others and others wouldn't trust them?

  The Altmer are far more racist in terms of the "superiority complex" than any other race. Even before the return of the Aldmeri Dominion they were snooty, pompous, and believed themselves to be far better than anyone else. Now they're even more likely to do that thanks to the Dominion telling them that they are better on a regular basis. The Ayleids enslaved men for hundreds of years, and treated them like less than dirt. And while yes the Ayleids aren't exactly the same as the high elves of Summerset they are still Altmer in blood. It's also possible I'm wrong, but I believe I've read that the Dominion actually supports the idea that they are of Ayleid decent and seem to relish that fact.

  If you look at the previous transgressions of other races then it's clear that the Nords are nowhere near as racist as their counterparts. It's also clear that almost all the racism in the Elder Scrolls, outside of the Altmer and Dunmer's superiority complexes, is pretty much justified. If I knew that the man living next door to me could possibly be a former slave owner, a spy or any other form of baddie that could harm me or my family then you're damn straight that I'm not gonna trust him. Yeah it's true he might also just be a nice guy, but until he proves that to me I'm not gonna treat him like he's my buddy. I'm gonna watch him like a hawk if he's in my home or yard, and if he asks me questions I'm gonna definitely be wary of how I answer. I may not use a racial slur, but that's only because of where and how I was raised. If I'd been raised in a place like Skyrim or even in a different time period like 1920s or 30s America I probably would have said something like "What do you want, spic?".

  It's also worth noting that where I'm from whites are not the majority, Hispanics are. Here it's totally common to see someone like myself being talked to in a derogatory way by Hispanic people. Racial slurs are used often on me by people I don't know. However, I've also got many Hispanic friends who don't use those terms because they know me well enough to know my intentions and whatnot. Honestly when I hear "gringo" or "whitey" it doesn't bother me because I know that those people are simply saying it out of mistrust for white folks which is perfectly sensible considering the past of this place. Why should they trust me right off the bat? I'm an outsider. I could just as easily be there to harass them or attack them as I could be their to simply say hi or buy a product from their store. 

• Tataunka

  

  • 91 posts
   

  December 23, 2013 1:17 AM EST

  Exactly! And the barring of races from cities isn't even true. Even Khajiit are not banned from cities in Skyrim, only the caravans. People assume because they don't see Khajiit living in the cities that they are all banned, but nowhere in lore or in-game does it say that all Khajiit are banned. The caravans are banned because they sell Skooma and Moonsugar which are extremely harmful to non-Khajiit. Why wouldn't you ban a drug dealer from entering your city?

• Premier Eden

  

  • 152 posts
   

  December 23, 2013 2:00 AM EST

  Reputed would be a "better" term, but yes 

• Drifa Skir

  

  • 158 posts
   

  December 23, 2013 3:26 PM EST

  this in itself is exactly a form of racism - generalizing that all khajiit caravans are dealing drugs, based upon reputation.  hence, "reputed" drug dealers.  unless and until an individual has been demonstrated to be breaking the law, it is racism to decide that he must be a lawbreaker on the basis of his race.  If the issue is that the khajiit caravans *are* breaking the law, then they should prosecute the ones who are doing so, and allow the other khajiit caravans free movement.

• Drifa Skir

  

  • 158 posts
   

  December 23, 2013 3:28 PM EST

  if they did this, made an example with a few of the caravans, you can bet that other caravans would go clean in order to sell their goods.

• Gyrobot

  

  • 10 posts
   

  December 23, 2013 3:41 PM EST

  But then again, most of the general merchants buy ANYTHING and have some sense of justification for it.

  One thing of interest though is that they scrapped the fight pits in Windhelm, guess Ralof's talk of having Dunmer and Argonians kill one another wasn't a metaphor but literally want Ulfric to open the pits to see them kill one another.