Forums » Elder Scrolls

The Aldmeri Dominion vs The Empire

    • 29 posts
    December 15, 2013 2:04 PM EST

    If it was so easy to defend, the Emperor wouldn't have run off. When the city is surrounded, things become a lot more complicated.

    The Redguards fought an honourable and courageous war against the Thalmor, uniting together because the Empire abandoned them. The Thalmor pulled out because it was too costly to continue, even though the Redguards were exhausted as well. I guess depending on what way you look at it, that is being beaten.

    The Thalmor did have the upper hand. Empire on the run. White-Gold tower captured. Imperial countryside captured... man they had it all, except that the Emperor was still alive.

    The Thalmor are sort of like Khan (Star Trek). Incredibly smart, yet failing to think the way others would think. While it never occurred to Khan to sweep the asteroid field, it never occurred to the Thalmor to send out scouts. And it never occurred to either of them because it's not in their nature.

     

  • Tim
    • 89 posts
    December 15, 2013 2:18 PM EST

    You forget that after a couple generations, the younger humans will be so complacent and/or wrapped up in fighting each other (i.e. the Stormcloak Rebellion for one) that the Dominion will just have to sit back and wait for the opportune moment. 

    The war fought with the Aldmeri Dominion is already beginning to slip into history, with most of the humans concerned about their own homes instead of the bigger picture. Many members of the Dominion who fought in the war will be alive and well, able to keep the big picture alive. The fact that Elves take a much longer view is what I mean by time being their best weapon. And they're smart enough to use that weapon and prey on the fickle and short-lived aspects of humanity.

    • 29 posts
    December 15, 2013 2:22 PM EST

    The Thalmor don't want to enslave mankind, they want to recreate the Merethic era, a more peaceful time (IMO, being an elf would be awesome!).

    It is only likely that humans will fight under one banner if another Oblivion Crisis occurred. The civil war greatly weakens Skyrim, with half the people supporting Ulfric and the other half the Imperials.

    With the Altmer wanting to purify and perfect elvenkind, it will be difficult finding a strategist capable of matching the Dominion's strategists. Tiber Septim was great, he unleashed Numidium -a weapon of mass destruction that no one can defend against- on the Altmer and threatened to use use it against others unless they swore fealty to him. Not so great after all.

    The Empire could win if they continue to breed and use the Altmer's inability to adapt against them.

    Only time will tell who would win.

     

  • December 15, 2013 2:28 PM EST
    Homo sapiens aren't related to any of the human races on Nirn.
    • 29 posts
    December 15, 2013 2:32 PM EST

    Right, I guess I should've said "It is only likely that man will fight under one banner.."

    • 966 posts
    December 15, 2013 2:54 PM EST

    At the time there was still plenty of Cyrodiil under Imperial control. Besides, the Empire still had Skyrim and High Rock, the AD wasn't even halfway.

    The Empire never really abandoned them, they left a veteran legion behind, without that discipline the Redguards might've lost.

    Sorry, never watched Star Trek. You're right about failing to adapt being the Altmer's greatest weakness. If the war takes too long, Altmer will always fail against Humans.

    • 91 posts
    December 15, 2013 2:59 PM EST

    First of all the argument that the Aldmeri Dominion have better diplomacy is ludicrous. Valenwood didn't join the Dominion willingly they were forced, and the Khajiit only joined because they believe the Altmer returned the moons and in effect saved their religion. The Summerset Isle is in turmoil right now with many young elves standing against the Dominion and its tactics in protest. And most of all ever human race HATES the elves now.

    It's also worth noting that the Orcs would easily come to the Empire's aid if another war broke out as they have always been loyal to the Empire. As for the Argonians being persuaded, well I don't think anyone could get the Argonians to do anything they didn't already plan to do at this point. The An-xileel are probably more dangerous than the Dominion at this point.

    Finally you have the Dunmer who have no real reason to get involved in this fight. Not to mention the Dunmer hate the Altmer damn near as much as men. I seriously doubt the Dunmer would even entertain the idea of talking with the Dominion let alone working with it.

    You also state that the Empire has no allies. Thing is -if- the Empire were to actually declare war on the Dominion again I wouldn't be surprised to see most Nords forgiving the Empire. I mean half the Nords fighting against the Empire in Skyrim are only doing so because they feel like the Empire were cowards for not fighting and signing the White Gold Concordat. With the Emperor dead a new one will have to be crowned and that new Emperor will probably garner more respect from the fractured Empire than Titus Mede did. The Redguard also, while still holding a grudge to the Empire, would likely be willing to put aside that difference for a shot at revenge (especially if the new leader of the Empire is persuasive like ol' Talos). The Empire also still has the Bretons and Orcs who are very much loyal to their cause.

    In the end the Dominion is no where near as strong as you'd like to believe. And while the war wouldn't be easy for either side I'd have to say that statistics are probably in favor of the Empire at this point. That is assuming the war didn't happen like tomorrow. I mean at this exact point the Empire is exhausted, but so are the Dominion. If the war happened right now it'd almost certainly end in a stalemate again only this time both sides would just be wiped out completely. If the war happens a few years down the line, after a new Emperor is crowned and has time to set things in motion, not to mention the breeding practices of men, I'd say the Empire would be more than capable of winning the war.

    • 966 posts
    December 15, 2013 3:04 PM EST

    The Empire might be able to find evidence that the Altmer have been lying to the Khajiit, if they do, they have another ally. Or at least lose an enemy. Even if it doesn't happen, within 50 years the Dominion will be kicked of the mainland. Taking Alinor will take longer.

    • 29 posts
    December 15, 2013 3:24 PM EST

    The Kahjiit would never betray the Thalmor unless evidence was provided about the Void Nights, and even then a large number of Kahjiits wouldn't believe that.

    Alinor is firmly ruled by the Thalmor, with no real political enemy. Not all Altmer are Thalmor, but the majority of the population would fight in the next war, because mer don't like mankind as well. 

    Hammerfell has what it wants now, which is the Thalmor gone from it's province. I don't think they would join the Imperials in an attack on the Dominion, the Redguards by nature are not rank and file soldiers.

    You make a good point about the nords, but their homeland has to come first. Who's the High King? When the war finishes, rebuilding the province and uniting the people is the first step.

    The Empire is very fragile. A high profile assassination could bring it all crumbling down.

    Without a navy to match the Dominion's, any sea attack launched by the Empire will fail, and the Dominion can easily send reinforcements to any coast it wants to.

     

    • 25 posts
    December 15, 2013 3:41 PM EST

    Don't be so sure about the Khajit. Their loyalties shift with shift the sands on their homelands.They live off of change so despite the impact of the Thalmor allegedly ending the Void Nights that will pass.

    Not all Altmer agree with the aggressive nature of the Thalmor. This was indicated in Rising Threat. Don't underestimate a movement to overthrow the Thalmor government in Alinor. Rejoining the Empire probably in the cards.

    I think the Redguards would join an Imperial attack against the Dominion if only out of revenge. There is bad blood between the two but I feel like that attacking a common enemy would wipe it away. And the Redguard have a long standing tradition of combat and fighiting one that could rival the Nords. Their naval might would be formidable as well.

    Won't know a thing on how the Skyrim until it's known who won the civil war. And the Nords own hatred and distrust of the Mer would encourage them to fight the Dominion whether for the Empire or Skyrim regardless of the mess their own province is in. I'd think they'd rather have a province to rebuild then to be usurped by the Altmer

    An assassination could strengthen it. It's clear that Titus Mede II is a capable peace time ruler and managed to hold off the Dominon from overrunning Cyrodill and the Empire but not very capable of attacking them. I would think that a new ruler would change this attitude and give the chance to even the playing field in the next inevitable war.

    Who said anything about invading Alinor? Only Tiber Septim pulled it off and only thanks to the Numedium. The Empire would only need to throw them off the mainland in the largely oppressed Valenwood and the Khajit would join in when it became obvious who was going to win. And the Altmer? They'd be happy enough to just isolate themselves from what was going on in the mainland. Just like they had done for centuries.

  • December 15, 2013 4:06 PM EST
    That was a response to Leon. A lot of people believe I, and others, should support the human races solely because I am one (PS: I kinda hate the human race in this world anyways).
  • December 15, 2013 4:07 PM EST
    Skyrim probably would join the Empire again if they declared war on the Dominion.

    The Redguards are very much a wild card. I've seen people talk about them siding with the Stormcloaks even. I think the Crowns will become the majority after the 'betrayal' of the Empire. And if the Crowns have majority rule, there's not much hope of them siding with anyone. Another possibility is that the Lhotunics will rise in power. If that happens then they'll likely be a bit more involved, but they'll probably ask for something in return or only be lightly involved.

    This is all just speculation, of course. I could be completely wrong. But I think these are the two most likely scenarios (and frankly, I want to see the Lhotunics grow in popularity a little bit).
    • 49 posts
    December 15, 2013 4:18 PM EST

    The Dominion isn't nearly as strong as they appear to be. They're just as crippled as the Empire, if not more than the Empire, seeing as they lost more soldiers and reproduce much slower. Even if the Stormcloaks took over and made the Empire even weaker, the Dominion wouldn't be able to last another war. If the Empire keeps waiting for hundreds of years, they'll become even stronger. Now is the time to strike.

    • 29 posts
    December 15, 2013 5:05 PM EST

    Ah, makes sense.

    I also dislike the human race in this world as well. It seems like it is harder and harder to find good people who actually care about others, which is why that Batkid thing in... San Fran I think, was so amazing.

    • 29 posts
    December 15, 2013 5:07 PM EST

    I mean excluding this blog. It's very easy to find nice people here ;)

    • 49 posts
    December 15, 2013 5:10 PM EST

    This. If the Empire agreed to lift the worship bans and war against the Thalmor, I'd forgive them in a heartbeat.

  • December 15, 2013 6:13 PM EST

    You ever do a thieves guild quest of planting false and incriminating evidence? Same thing, just political.

  • December 15, 2013 6:16 PM EST

    Even if they strike now, I'd have to be very coordinated. Assassinating the emperor and lead military officials at the same time as invading. That is way to difficult to pull off.

    • 91 posts
    December 15, 2013 6:28 PM EST

    The Khajiit would easily betray the Thalmor if they saw something worthwhile in it, or if they realized they had been completely duped. The Khajiit have historically been opportunists and aren't very loyal to anyone for very long. I mean they don't get their bad reputation simply because they're misunderstood. Many Khajiit are in fact pretty shifty to say the least.

    It's been shown out of game that there are in fact many Altmer that don't like the Dominion at all and are very vocal about it. People also severely overestimate the racism in Tamriel. Even in the Stormcloak capital of Windhelm there are two Altmer, both of which don't seem to give a rats ass about the Dominion or its racist ways. In fact almost none of the non-Thalmor Altmer in Skyrim show any sort of real racism at all. They act snooty, but they don't seem to really harbor any ill will toward man at all. I doubt even half the population of the Dominion really support it fully. If the Dominion was on its last leg so to speak I think they'd gladly switch sides.

    Hammerfell didn't just want the Thalmor gone, they want them dead. Redguards have never been complacent and to think that just running someone off would be the end of it for them is foolish. They'll likely attempt an attack on the Thamor by themselves even if the Empire doesn't. It's also worth noting that the Thamor aren't gone from Hamerfell at all. Half the province is still under their rule and "The fight against the Dominion is still strong in Hammerfell" (Quote by Kematu, leader of the Alik'r during the quest "In my time of need").

    As for the High King argument well, that all depends on which side you chose during the civil war, or if Bethesda decides that neither choice mattered in canon which is likely going to be the case then it'll probably be someone unexpected. Any of the ways you put it though they all would be willing to fight the Dominion. Spoilers Ahead: If you side with the Stormcloaks Ulfric and his boys are flat out ready to take the fight to the Dominion after they recuperate from the civil war. If you side with the Empire General Tullius tells you that he's going to start planning to fight the Thamor after the rebuilding process is done, and that he doesn't agree with the politicians. And if neither side matters because something happens between now and the new game (likely scenario) then we'll probably get a High King that won't like the Dominion at all anyway seeing as no Nord in their right mind would.

    As for the assassination well, I doubt that it would have much effect honestly. Spoilers Again: I mean the Emperor is killed during the events of Skyrim (whether by you as the player during the DB questline or an unknown assassin) and absolutely no one really gives a crap. That is literally how meaningful the lives of these complacent politicians are. The real battles and decisions will be made by the generals like Tullius. And if Tullius or any other general were killed it'd probably just work to incite even more rage in the Empire's soldiers. You also forget that the Empire isn't above using assassins either. The Dominion could easily lose a leader to an assassin who's purse was lined with Imperial gold.

    I'd also like to point out that while the Dominion's Navy is damn amazing, the Nords and Redguard both have decent Navies themselves. Hell even the Imperials can hold their own in Naval combat if need be. I'd say that 3 or even just 2 good Navies are equal to 1 outnumbered "great" Navy.

    The attack wouldn't come right this minute anyway. The Empire would have to first have meetings with the leaders of other nations like the Redguard and Nords, plus they'd need to start recruiting and training an army. At the quickest I'd think this war would be a couple years down the line which is more than enough time for the Nords to rebuild and the Empire to send out tendrils to find allies willing to fight. Also while for humans 2, 3, or even 4 years seems like quite a while to wait it wouldn't even be the blink of an eye to the Thalmor. In the time it'd take the Empire to form an army and get allies the Thalmor, because of their long lifespans and extremely low birthrates, would have almost nothing done. A long life gives you the time to gain TONS of knowledge and power, but it also makes you take things at a MUCH slower pace because you don't really feel the need or urgency that someone who's only got 100 years tops to live would.

  • December 15, 2013 6:46 PM EST
    "Half the province is still under their rule and "The fight against the Dominion is still strong in Hammerfell" (Quote by Kematu, leader of the Alik'r during the quest "In my time of need")."

    "In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left southern Hammerfell devastated. ... the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell." -The Great War
    • 91 posts
    December 15, 2013 6:50 PM EST

    Ah interesting. Makes me rethink siding with Kematu then... or the legitimacy of that entire quest...

    Regardless the fact still stands that the Redguards wouldn't be happy with just "wounding" an enemy.

  • December 15, 2013 8:00 PM EST
    Yeah, I don't think either Saadia or Kematu are 100% telling the truth, but I think Kematu is still more truthful. He could've been talking about the Thalmor sending spies or even (very) small invasion forces.
    • 52 posts
    December 15, 2013 9:53 PM EST
    The Empire would have the Dark Brotherhood and if they got the Dark Elfs to join too then they would also have the Morag tong.
  • December 15, 2013 10:40 PM EST
    The Dark Brotherhood is almost dead (also they would listen to whoever pays them the most, which may not be the Empire) and I highly doubt the Dark Elves would join the Empire.
    • 15 posts
    December 16, 2013 6:53 AM EST

    30 years isn't enough time to recover, it's not only about having babies but also train them, create the economic structures required for professional standing armies and the creation of seasoned veterans. Certain factions of Valenwood were against the Dominion others were with the Dominion, to say Valenwood was made to adhere to the Thalmor when seeing that the Thalmor are also composed of powerful elements of Bosmeri politics and lobby's. The Khajit adhered to the Dominion willingly. Valenwood does produce food, in the form of meat, not all of Elsywer is a desert and from what i've heard the Summerset Isles are quite abundant. 

    The human nations didn't acquire peace after the end of the Great War, Skyrim is full with internecine conflicts as is Hammerfell, now that the Empire has relinquished its hold factions will rise and fall in their bid for power. 

    The dunmer are going to avoid a direct confrontation with other nations but that doesn't mean they are going to be helpless, they have ports, mines and other logistical and natural resources that could aid any side they would choose to help. Even if they stay out of it and remain independent, where they to shun both Dominion and Empire the one to be most affected by it would be the Empire. 

    The Dominion is indeed very capable from a diplomatic standpoint, gaining the alliance of the Khaijit and certain power groups in Valenwood, not only that they tried to force the Empire to go to the negotiating table after taking the white-gold tower, or the pact they made with the Redguards. This shows that the Dominion uses war as a means and not as an end in itself, basing their legitimacy on basis of the law. Something the Empire founded by Tiber Septim also did but are failing at the diplomatic and political game lately. Just with one pact, Skyrim is at war with itself and Hammerfell got separated.

    The Dominion is playing it smart, they have committed some errors but they learn from them and fast. Seeing how the Thalmor plan in advance with such level of detail and knowledge, they have already planned for the next steps in the game.

    Not saying the Empire doesn't have its strengths and resources but wars are won wilth the mind not with brawn (a focus pro-imperials have in general). Just a bit of advice to the Empire, the Dominion underestimated you to a certain point, don't return the favour if you want to win.