Forums » The Lounge

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 6:04 AM EDT

  Hey guys and gals!

  I hope to create a discussion here without any flaming left and right, thank you very much. I would like to see only constructive posts, or do not post at all.

  The other day a Character Build called "The Pirate Prince" was posted in the Character Build group (it was recently removed due to it not being up to the standards required, not because it was based off of a mod). I have not seen any build yet, on this site, that was created with mods in mind. I think it was a good thing it happened, because I have, for some time, been slowly working on Character Builds myself that does the same thing. And that is creating a build based on PC mods. And I have been dreading the effect it would have. And I was not fully wrong in my suspicion.

  This particular build and my own builds use a mod called Skyrim Redone, or SkyRe (made by T3nd0). It is a gameplay overhaul mod which mainly overhauls the perk system, the races and the standing stones. This opens up countless more ways a player could build his character. The perk system allows for some very great and new character builds that just isn't possible in Vanilla.

  My suspicion was that people wouldn't like this at all, and as I stated earlier, I wasn't totally wrong. The build that was posted was met mostly with contempt, but also some good critique. The reason I post this is that I want to discuss why it should be ok to post these without the need of people criticizing a build for being based on a mod.

  Ben C said, somewhere, that there is only around 14% of all Skyrim players that play on the PC. The rest of all Skyrim players plays on the consoles. I respect that, but is that really what a build in the CB group should be judged for? If I want to create a new character, and if I want to base it on a mod, shouldn't I be able to share that? There are, after all, about 14% of you that might like it? And some of the other 86% might like it anyway, even if they cannot play it, because it was a well fleshed out build that sounded good, or am I wrong?

  Even if the standards of a good CB group build are met, be it formatting, grammar and plain good writing, should you really stomp on the build anyway? I think many of those remaining 86% would, just because they can. 

  The reason that I would post a build, would be to share it to others. Hopefully I would make people interested of a good looking and seemingly fun build, even if the reader maybe couldn't play it. On the other hand, the author should do everything in his power to help interested console players to play his build as well. 

  This group has fleshed out so many possible builds which I am so very impressed over. I just don't think it is a good move to harass people that want to bring new and interesting builds to the scene, even if they do not really work for everyone.

  Thanks for reading. Peace out! 

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 6:38 AM EDT

  I'll correct that then.

  What I don't get is why you see it as a insult towards console gamers? Isn't the group made for sharing builds, after all? I don't say that everyone should read those builds. Heck, I don't read every build I see, only those who's name and short description appeals to me. But that's where the interest should be, not whether or not the build itself is based of a mod. 

  I do however respect that it isn't for everyone, but at least people should give it a chance from reading a good build name and description. If that is done, and it still doesn't reach the 20+ likes, then so be it. I just don't like the approach where you say: "As soon as I see a build requires any mods I stop reading." But heck, we are all different, are we not?

  I would also detest those who would play it like you say:  "I don't give a damn if you aren't able to use mods, I am going to flaunt it anyway". That isn't why I would post a build. It is all about sharing the idea, and hopefully inspire others.

  Thanks for your input!

• Shimazu

  

  • 209 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 6:46 AM EDT

  Is it not the same as utilizing items from a DLC Ben?

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 6:49 AM EDT

  Of course "you lot" matters if I would post a build. If you think it is a good enough read, inspiring enough, even if you cannot play it, can you not read and enjoy it? For me, the CB group is not about I having to play all the builds I see. For me it is mostly about reading about creative ways to play the game. 

  It's sad that others before me have made this impression on you *sad face*.

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 6:52 AM EDT

  I did actually think about that, but I didn't want to sound like one of those that "I don't give a damn if you aren't able to use mods, I am going to flaunt it anyway", who comes up with a snide comment :P 

• Josh Marken

  

  • 158 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:01 AM EDT

  I'd like to throw my opinion as a console gamer

  Allow me to use DLC as an analogy. When Dragonborn first came out, within the first week DB builds were being produced. At that time only a small portion of the blog had DB, so what did we do? We threw a spoiler tag on them and left them alone until it was relevant to us.

  We can do the same thing for Modded builds with the PC tag that was put in.

  Honestly I don't see what the debate is about

  It's like standing in line at a food establishment and getting angry at the person in front of you for using an ingredient you can't eat because of allergies. Do you vocalise and tell them off because they can eat it and you can't? 

  if a modded build is going to be killed in a deathmatch because it's modded, so be it, but when responding to the build itself I would hope people judge it based on it's merits as a build, not based on it's ingredients. 

• Josh Marken

  

  • 158 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:03 AM EDT

  What about when ps3 couldn't get the DLC?

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:05 AM EDT

  The same way you reason that everyone can get the DLCs and not play mods on consoles, if they choose to play on a console, one could argue that modable Skyrim is playable for everyone, if they choose to play on a PC. 100% of the Skyrim Community has access to every PC mod.

  Ben, it is very hard to create builds that are still unique. At least for me, and possibly many others that aren't as awesome and creative as the best character builders. So that means that there are already countless builds that has touched on most possible builds. That is why I think it is fun for us PC players to try to share what we can.

  But this doesn't mean that a "mod build" couldn't try to help a console player to adapt it for a console, if he so wishes. I would even suggest similar builds if there was any, if someone asked. 

  It is all about getting up and above the Bloodworks, just as any other build. Just give it a chance. That is my main point here.

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:06 AM EDT

  You at least tried. We are all of different tastes, which is a wonderful thing. How boring the world would be if it wasn't like that :D

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:17 AM EDT

  Well spoken. So be it if the build doesn't work itself up for those 20+ votes. As long as it got a shot I'm fine with it. And if that would be using a spoiler at the start of the build, so be it.

  But some people do hate if they are allergic to, for example, nuts, and stands in a line. It has happened to me one time. Haters are going to hate 

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:20 AM EDT

  Yeah, but some of us do enjoy them.

  I too think that, especially after the Steam Sale of the Legendary Edition.

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:26 AM EDT

  But I never saw a notice that this site was a "Vegetarian only Site" (a console only site). As long as it is not, I don't get what the fuss is about? :s

• Josh Marken

  

  • 158 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:27 AM EDT

  Like vegetarians do to meat, I too as a console gamer, have a moral/physical repulsion towards mods. 

  There's no shoe size fits all. Generalising for everyone won't get us anywhere, so I suppose another way I could phrase the general point of what's being said is if you know the modded build is doomed, why not just leave it be and let those who are interested have their fun?

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:33 AM EDT

  You say it yourself: "... let those who are interested have their fun?". There are those who are interested in this. I want to give them a chance to have their fun. But if it doesn't work out, the build wont get through the Bloodworks, which I'm fine with.

  But yeah, this is why I have not yet posted any of my builds here, because, sadly, I had a big feeling this was what actually would happen, even if I never had seen it before.

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:36 AM EDT

  I guess where most of the PC Skyrim players comes from downloaded games, which I haven't accounted for. So yeah, to be fair, 14% is really not a good number. 

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:40 AM EDT

  I get that. But it really sounds like this is a console only site, or rather "no mods" site, when you say it like that. Mod required builds hasn't been claimed to be completely wrong, which meat recipes on a vegetarian site would obviously be. 

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:44 AM EDT

  But my intent is not about advertise a mod. I want to share my idea and vision of a character that could be the Dragonborn or other characters in the lands of Skyrim. Isn't that what we are all doing in the CB group? 

  It's sad that it has come to this. 

• asgard

  

  • 19 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:51 AM EDT

  I myself am a PC player but like to stick with cosmetic addons only as I'm somewhat of a purist when it comes to gameplay. However, I see nothing wrong with wanting to make a PC-only build. If you're willing to put in the hard work required to make a quality build, then any restriction you put in place, intrinsic (hardware) or otherwise (roleplaying), is nobody's business and it is extremely presumptuous for anyone to demand anything of you. The way I see it, one more quality build, even if it is PC-only, is far better for the site than no build at all. Deleting such a build because it does not survive a deathmatch is extremely regrettable, to put it mildly.

  My 2 septims.

• Ponty

  

  • 708 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:56 AM EDT

  It's sad that if someone decides to post a modded build that console players will inevitably bash on it for the sole reason that is relies on mods.

  I didn't see PS3 and PC players ranting at DLC builds before the DLC came to their system. Mods are a big part of the Skyrim experience for many PC players - this is a Skyrim site, and the "Character Build PC" tag offers a place for those builds.

• Morta

  

  • 33 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:57 AM EDT

  Ben, I advise you take a look at what you posted  here. You aren't trying to explain why mod-based builds are doing poorly, you are just "sick and tired of hearing about mods". You think that people that make mod-based builds/post videos about mods are simply doing it to tell you "Hurr durr I am superior you filthy console-peasant", when in reality, we just wanted to try something different. You, on the other hand, don't give a dammn about mods, and you don't want this precious site to be infected by the people who think that vanilla and mod-based builds can get along nicely.

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:58 AM EDT

  But then let others get the chance to taste the meat, without having to spoil their taste for it.

  I do not expect "mod builds" to do well, I just do not like people spoiling the meat before letting those who wants to taste it, do just that. With this unwritten rule, from successful and "important" people, just like yourself, that "mods are shit", the meat is spoiled, so noone wants to taste it.

  That is how communities such as these works. I do not say I do not like your work. It is brilliant, and you are very influential. But the same way people respect you for what you do, why don't you respect people for what they want to do?

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 7:59 AM EDT

  I like that idea. This is obviously not for everyone, so why not...

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 8:01 AM EDT

  Thanks. 2 good septims. I should replace my whole text with: 

  "The way I see it, one more quality build, even if it is PC-only, is far better for the site than no build at all. Deleting such a build because it does not survive a deathmatch is extremely regrettable, to put it mildly."

  I don't say my builds will be awesome, nor anyones that is based on a mod. But I never get to the finished state where I feel I can post those to this awesome community, because this bad aura is lingering in the background. where I know people wont give it a chance.

• Tompa

  

  • 51 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 8:12 AM EDT

  Yeah, I can't do anything but agree, obviously.

  The "This is a build that relies on a mod" should really come after the Lore, story and introduction of the character itself. That way, people might be interested in who and what Character  was built, before it gets "spoiled". We are, after all, doing the builds to inspire people to play in different ways. And just because some builds are modded, it is still a different build.

  Those tags are good and those wont save builds that isn't good enough. Even if they are modded or not. Which is, I think, just fine. 

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  August 21, 2013 8:28 AM EDT

  I don't mind too much, but I am probably going to be more critical of a modded-builds (not overly critical but still more critical) due to the fact that A.) I can't play it and B.) It (very likely) uses unfamiliar mechanics so it needs to really do a good job selling the gameplay concept.